Kira on Defiant

[Mikey]

Hmm. I knew of one non-Commonwealth-citizen who is/was an officer in the House cavalry, but that was through some arcane loophole relating to his partially-Canadian parentage or something.

I know of thousands of non-Commonwealth nationals in the army - they're best soldiers on the planet, by a very long way.

Are you referring to the Gurkhas?

The US also has plenty of non US citizens in the military too. It's one the fastest (but perhaps not the easiest) way of getting citizenship. As far as I am concerned, if someone is willing to join the military to become a US citizen, then that's fine by me. Anyway, my boot camp division of around 80 had around 30-35 non-US citizans ranging from South America to Korea.

I had no idea that was legitimately allowed. Are such people allowed to enlist if they haven't become ex-pat from their nation of origin?

[Captain Seafort]

Are you referring to the Gurkhas?

Of course.

[McAvoy]

The US also has plenty of non US citizens in the military too. It's one the fastest (but perhaps not the easiest) way of getting citizenship. As far as I am concerned, if someone is willing to join the military to become a US citizen, then that's fine by me. Anyway, my boot camp division of around 80 had around 30-35 non-US citizans ranging from South America to Korea.

I had no idea that was legitimately allowed. Are such people allowed to enlist if they haven't become ex-pat from their nation of origin?

I have no idea honestly. All I know is that my division had a hard time understanding their broken English and that we were told about at least several who in fact enlisted to gain their citizenship.

I know personally of one person who has done this but he did live in the US for awhile before enlisting.

[katefan]

Huh. I had no idea non-Americans could enlist in the US Army. You learn something new every day.

As for Kira and her status on Defiant, is it possible part of the arrangement with the Bajorans and DS9 extended to any support craft? Kira has used Federation runabouts so perhaps Sisko argued Defiant was essentially in the same category. Seriously, Defiant is often used like an oversized runabout.

[Vic]

In the Navy I knew many Phillipino nationals and one Thai national. Most Phillipinos stayed in 20 to 30 years and retired to the Phillipines with their pension and live quite well there.

[Coalition]

So.... are you saying that the commander of an aircraft carrier could fix the reactor if it goes down?

No. What I am saying is that even a commanding officer of a aircraft carrier would have some knowledge of how it works. Look at it this way: put a Canadian naval officer in charge of an aircraft carrier. How well would he do?

He would learn what wasn't covered, and after the tour as Captain of the carrier would immediately recommend a tour as a student in the Navy's Nuclear program. Which would actually be quite fun, as he would outrank all of the instructors there so if he needed to get qualified on something, he would just stick his head into their office and ask for their assistance (no matter what else they were doing or wanted to do). The Ensigns there would learn to hang out with the Captain, so they could get the qualifications at the same time.


As to Kira, I'd like to have seen a comment or two about her taking holodeck courses in Starfleet leadership principles, so we can establish that behind the scenes she is learning Starfleet courses (like Troi did in "Thine own Self"). Sometimes she takes the course with other officers present (to provide real feedback vs programmed) so they get more comfortable with the idea of her being in command.

[McAvoy]

So.... are you saying that the commander of an aircraft carrier could fix the reactor if it goes down?

No. What I am saying is that even a commanding officer of a aircraft carrier would have some knowledge of how it works. Look at it this way: put a Canadian naval officer in charge of an aircraft carrier. How well would he do?

He would learn what wasn't covered, and after the tour as Captain of the carrier would immediately recommend a tour as a student in the Navy's Nuclear program. Which would actually be quite fun, as he would outrank all of the instructors there so if he needed to get qualified on something, he would just stick his head into their office and ask for their assistance (no matter what else they were doing or wanted to do). The Ensigns there would learn to hang out with the Captain, so they could get the qualifications at the same time.


As to Kira, I'd like to have seen a comment or two about her taking holodeck courses in Starfleet leadership principles, so we can establish that behind the scenes she is learning Starfleet courses (like Troi did in "Thine own Self"). Sometimes she takes the course with other officers present (to provide real feedback vs programmed) so they get more comfortable with the idea of her being in command.

Nuke school is at least 18 months long for enlisted and I would imagine something similar for the officers. Not only that but a carrier is a mini airport and as CO he would have to know how to handle that. Something Canadian Naval Officers would have little understanding of.

Yes. Train anyone long enough and they can become a CO of a ship.

[Deepcrush]

Important note is that right now there are 5000 US Marines in Australia on cross training operations with the RAA/RAF (if RAF is the right term to use) in which both nations are exchanging command officers at company, and battalion levels. Which is a rather simple example of real life programs that match what we see with Kira and Sisko.

Also, sorry for the late response. Work has been rather... busy.

[Tsukiyumi]

Work has been rather... busy.

Paperwork to sign, people to kill. That's how it goes, man.

[Mikey]

Important note is that right now there are 5000 US Marines in Australia on cross training operations with the RAA/RAF (if RAF is the right term to use) in which both nations are exchanging command officers at company, and battalion levels. Which is a rather simple example of real life programs that match what we see with Kira and Sisko.

Also, sorry for the late response. Work has been rather... busy.

Interesting (the Marine part, not the work part.) Are those exchanged officers afforded all the rights and responsibilities of the officers with whom they swapped?

[Deepcrush]

Work has been rather... busy.

Paperwork to sign, people to kill. That's how it goes, man.

I'm happy to say that I have left most of the violence of my life behind and my current work is rarely life threatening.

Interesting (the Marine part, not the work part.) Are those exchanged officers afforded all the rights and responsibilities of the officers with whom they swapped?

Slightly further, in that the exchange officers are required to command their counterparts force as though they were of the counterpart's service. I think its a good sign that the USMC is finally willing to allow someone other then US Marines (or MacArthur) to command them in battle. The problem of shared command with the Corps is long seeded, "Only a Marine can truly command Marines and only the President can command a Marine." The cross training and joint battle commands will go a long way in several areas. First being that both forces can share experience and learn from the strengths of their counterparts. Likewise with DS9, Kira and Sisko fill this role. Sisko has been given command of a Bajoran station in Bajoran space. In return, Kira has the 2iC position allowing her to at times take command when Sisko isn't there. It builds trust and confidence between SF and BM personnel which is vital for joint command outposts or ships.

SF was looking to bring the Bajorans into the UFP. Just showing up and saying to the Bajorans, who just survived a rather nasty occupation, anything along the lines of "We're here now and you're all inferior to us so now you serve us." just wouldn't work well.

[Mikey]

I'm not disagreeing with that last part - Starfleet has done lots of things with which I disagree in principle. However, no mention or even intimation was ever made of Kira or any other Bajoran having oversight of SF personnel.

The bit about the USMC is indeed long overdue... even among U.S. services, the leathernecks tend to hold an insular position and rarely even participate in JSOC weapon trials or the like. The Ozzies are probably one of the best armed services with whom to attempt this experiment, because of the shared philosophy of "every Marine, a rifleman."

[Captain Seafort]

I'm not disagreeing with that last part - Starfleet has done lots of things with which I disagree in principle. However, no mention or even intimation was ever made of Kira or any other Bajoran having oversight of SF personnel.

On the contrary - she was Sisko's second in command, and as such had authority over every other Starfleet officer and rating on the station. She commanded the station and, as we've been discussing, the Defiant, in Sisko's absence on numerous occasions (starting with the battle with Jasad's task force in Emissary).

[Mikey]

:headdesk:

OK, some of us are discussing the current state of affairs while some of us are discussing the relative merits and sanity of that state of affairs compared to what we'd consider ideal.

[Deepcrush]

:headdesk:

OK, some of us are discussing the current state of affairs while some of us are discussing the relative merits and sanity of that state of affairs compared to what we'd consider ideal.

I was discussing both, just to point out. In summary, Kira on and in command of Defiant doesn't violate any standing that I can see in either Trek or Real Life.

The bit about the USMC is indeed long overdue... even among U.S. services, the leathernecks tend to hold an insular position and rarely even participate in JSOC weapon trials or the like. The Ozzies are probably one of the best armed services with whom to attempt this experiment, because of the shared philosophy of "every Marine, a rifleman."

The problem with joint ops for the USMC has always been trying to find a force that can match a Marine Division on the move. Training, equipment and motivation (or fanaticism if you feel the need to be blunt), the Corps is second to none as a whole. While different forms of Spec'Ops are clearly matching in a one/one basis, the numbers of Marines simply out paces them. The mindset is also extremely different from most other modern military branches, so much so that joint op's generally just fall apart. Best way to use Marines in a joint op is to point at the worst enemy position, stay out of the way and have the press service follow everyone else while saying "look how great we work together... no no no no, leave the Marines alone, they're umm busy or something."

I'm not disagreeing with that last part - Starfleet has done lots of things with which I disagree in principle. However, no mention or even intimation was ever made of Kira or any other Bajoran having oversight of SF personnel.

On the contrary - she was Sisko's second in command, and as such had authority over every other Starfleet officer and rating on the station. She commanded the station and, as we've been discussing, the Defiant, in Sisko's absence on numerous occasions (starting with the battle with Jasad's task force in Emissary).

I think seafort has nailed it on this one.