Economics of the 24th Century

[Blaston Phools]

Quarks Bar on DS9 is very popular, not just with the those whom live on the station but with lots of people from all over the Quadrent coming and going needing to stretch their legs or conduct business. Imagine this.. You disembark your ship in the docking ring entrance, then you go to Garaks Tailors Shop to get some clothes repaired, while hes doing that you go get something to eat and drink at Quarks perhaps trading humorous anecdotes about female aliens with Morn.. As Quark takes your order then pulls it from the replicator behind him, gives you your food and beverage then charges you, you pay.

But then you stop and suddenly realize..

That theres a replicator in your quarters.. which could recycle my damaged clothes for new ones, free of charge..
(Infact why would you need a Tailor or even a Cobler? Since id imagine that using 24th century CPU technology and the replicators i could create from scratch any apparel in any design from any culture i wished at whim. Unless its something restricted like a Starfleet uniform, you gotta earn that!)

And then theres the "Replimats". Which i assume are the municipal food replicators which are just outside the bar and are also, free of charge. (Which makes me wonder why Quark dousnt have bouncers to prevent people getting thier free food and drink from the public replicators then stroll over to his bar to enjoy it)

It seems that in the 24th Century, value is relative and not an absolute.
Its obviously some kind of a Post Scarcity society, which is enabled by the presence of the replication technology in conjunction with sophisticated automated systems capable of converting raw materials into finished goods (which itself is an offshoot of the Transporter Technology), allowing manufacturing to be as easy as duplicating software. Things such as food, clean water, services and information are free, or practically free.. And practically limitless! Id imagine theres a high percentage of unemployment on Gene Roddenberrys Earth the only odd thing is, its not an issue. Since everyone is well fed, clothed, clean, literate, and healthy.. AND if they get bored theres a whole fricking Galaxy to explore, at thier leisure! It seems mankind can now have his cake and eat it.

Ive heard the term "Federation Credit" being mentioned. It could be plausible that the UFP does have some system of currency. Sometimes we see Starfleet personnel buying gifts and having it "billed to thier account" ordering drinks and requesting that it be "put on thier Tab". Perhaps federation citizens and Starfleet Captains are paid. But they just dont need it because anything of value.. That is relative value (such as a pair of shoes, a glass of water) is free. But items of absolute value, i.e things that cannot be replicated such as Latinum, or precious Gemstones, must be paid for with a currency that everyone can agree has value. Its the same reason Joseph Sisko slaves away all day in his resturant, its certainly not to pay the bills. But for the same reason a Painter paints a masterpiece or a Composer creates beautiful music. Because they WANT to! Thier motivation is purer and more noble than ours..

In a World without money, what replaces money? Passion! And creative genius!

It would be interesting to read anyones else's thoughts on this intriguing subject..

[Mikey]

Well, this is one we've had in various and sundry forms. I tend to favor the explanation that the "moneyless economy" so often espoused in 'Trek is meant to refer to a situation internal to the UFP. Obviously, trade and currency do exist in a very healthy state outside the UFP. As to some specific points you raise:

1) There is no reason to believe that the "replimats" are any more free-of-charge than Quark's is.
2) There is no reason to believe that free, unlimited replicator services are available to the general civilian population outside the UFP proper.
3) Today, items that are handcrafted or unique due to their personal artisanship are considered more valuable than their mass-produced counterparts. I can rightly expect to pay more for a hand-tailored suit that for a suit I buy off-the-rack. There is no reason to assume that this has changed in the 24th century - even if a suit of clothes is available free (or cheap,) people may be quite willing to pay (or pay more) for a hand-tailored suit from the latest line from Garak of Bajor.

[McAvoy]

I also suspect that there are different grades of replicators as well. From the bare basics to the super high end one that you can't tell the difference between the real thing and the replicated ones. In addition, there would be a good possibility that the taste between let's say a cheese hamburger in Quarks, private replicator and the replimat are different or at least people think it is.

There also could be restrictions on private replicators as well, either by design or intentionally. Perhaps also, those personal replicators has a system which every time you use it, it charges your account.

[Atekimogus]

Well I always imagined that the replimat is something of a 24th century cantina, it covers your basic needs of beverages and food but all is rather standard and bland. But since it's for free or at least you got diskount-coupons working for the station you still visit sometimes.

Now you do need raw material for replicaters and while the replimat probably works on recycled piss and shit (pardon my french) I could imagine that Quarks replicators are provided with more sopisticated raw materials allowing a far greater variety of foodstuff and beverages to be produced.

Another reason for people to go to Quarks is that he has a variety of non-replicated stuff, which obviously is deemed superior to replicated stuff.

The same is true probably for Garak. Sure I can replicate a standard size shirt, but a formfitting one especially made for me? Would I be creative enough to design it myself? Choose the fabric etc. etc.? So again, if I am content with the standard recipies which are probably rather bland I am ok, otherwise, I still need to see a designer/tailor.

(What I don't understand is how federation personelle like O'brien, Bashir and co pay for Quarks/Garaks services with no money. Can they just consume as much as they want and the UFP covers their bills?)

[McAvoy]

(What I don't understand is how federation personelle like O'brien, Bashir and co pay for Quarks/Garaks services with no money. Can they just consume as much as they want and the UFP covers their bills?)

Probably just has an account that Quark charges and the federation pays. I would say that Federation personnel do have a limit so I guess they do get paid so they can buy stuff outside the Federation.

[Mikey]

Makes a bit of sense (at least, in the midst of a nonsensical scenario.) In lieu of a regular salary, perhaps Starfleet agrees to cover "x" amount of bills.

[Blaston Phools]

Yes, but of course being enlightened people from the 24th Century,plus thier sence of self-control and duty, prevents them from going overboard (so to speak) with this liberty givin to them by Starfleet. If you gave the same "blank cheque" policy in todays workplace with your employee's they'd probably be buying flat screen TVs, Classic Cars and trips to Paris for the weekend. At your expence.

[Atekimogus]

Makes a bit of sense (at least, in the midst of a nonsensical scenario.) In lieu of a regular salary, perhaps Starfleet agrees to cover "x" amount of bills.

Well, we have the example of Beverly Crusher purchasing a piece of fabric with Credits at Farpoint station so they do get paid somehow. It seems that the enlightend people of earth don't have any money.....but they seem to have credit/atm cards, lol....

Honestly, the whole "no money" fantasy is probably the dumbest concept they came up with, at least with the Prime Directive the spirit of respecting other lifeforms, not interfere with them unwanted etc. makes a BIT of sense if it is not taken to an extreme (like condeming a whole civilisation to death just because they happen to not have invented warp-drives yet).

Now I think I know what they WANTED to achieve with it, showing us that greed for wealth isn't anymore what motivates us, but they took it again to an unpractical extreme. It would have been far better if they'd just shown us, that in the 24th century all basic human needs (housing, food, clothing, health care etc. all the things needed to exist) are taken care of and it is up to you were you go from there and lo and behold, the majority of humanity did not become lazy bums, enjoying holographic porn 24/7 and are basically useless but instead they went to the stars in search of knowledge and to better the whole of humanity. That would have been more than positve enough, no need to eliminate money.

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

How many times was the 'no money' thing stated again? Because I know one of them was Picard in 'The Neutral Zone' and it seemed more like him trying to deflate Offenhouse's ego. Relish the irony there.

[Mikey]

Picard stated it explicitly to Lilly in FC.

[Blaston Phools]

Yes Dr Crushers comment in "encounter at farpoint" was not lost on me either. Clearly they do have some kind of "credit" or are at the very least are privvy to some type of petty cash for personal purposes. Plus Captain Sisko bribes Quark in "In the pale moonlight" with 5 bars of Latinum. Where exactly would he get capitol to obtain 5 bars from? Unless he either already has 5 bars (or more) or exchanges "X" amount of "FedCreds" for the said Latinum. He could have got it from Starfleet..

"There is no reason to believe that the "replimats" are any more free-of-charge than Quark's is".

Indeed, its true that its never stated that the replimats are free. And niether have we seen anyone pay for anything at the replimat. Although i do like the idea that the replimat is a "basic" replicator only creating staple food dishes (a human example would be Pasta dishes or Porage Oats) and a limited amount of beverage options.
Quark, being the astute business man would possibly install a more advanced replicator with better resolution thus creating more food and drink options with far better more realistic textual quality. Plus Vulcan Love Slave looks worth a look...

"There is no reason to believe that free, unlimited replicator services are available to the general civilian population outside the UFP proper.."

This is also true, BUT. Im having a hard time coming up with reasons why they would NOT be available to anyone, specifically from any race that was significantly advanced to be aware of the technology in the first place, for example why would an alien pay to use the replimat or Quarks bar when he/she could just dine abord thier own ship, using thier own replicators.. For free. Even if it is slightly anti-social.
Because its not a problem with energy consumption, im going out on a limb here when i write that the drain on the general main power trying to make a Cheese Sandwich or a bowl of Gak, which would be provided by the Matter Anti-matter reaction would be negligible. (with the exemption of Voyager, which seems to black out anytime someone replicates a cup of coffee! FFS) Its safe to say if you've mastered tapping the primeval energy of the Universe that allows technological application of a craft to bend space at will and travel FASTER than the speed of light itself, then energy consumption is not an issue. besides charging people for the use of a replicator seems rather dishonest, it would be like charging someone for a glass of water from a source as abundent as the Pacific Ocean.

Your right Tailored suits are better, which explains why Garak is the only one in the series who dousnt dress like a Dart flight when not wearing a uniform of some sort. This could be deliberate or the result of a bad costume department.

[Mikey]

First, let me say that if you scroll down to a prior post, you can highlight desired text and then click the "quote" button in the upper right of the text box; or, just click the button to quote the entire thing. It'll make your life easier.

And niether have we seen anyone pay for anything at the replimat.

And we wouldn't, if transactions are carried out electronically via password or biometric - all not only possible but expected considered the contemporary technology.

This is also true, BUT. Im having a hard time coming up with reasons why they would NOT be available to anyone, specifically from any race that was significantly advanced to be aware of the technology in the first place, for example why would an alien pay to use the replimat or Quarks bar when he/she could just dine abord thier own ship, using thier own replicators.. For free. Even if it is slightly anti-social.

Why? Because we are attempting to divine reasons for people eating at pay-for-service establishments. Yes, if someone has a ship berthed at DS9, they could dine aboard his ship (excepting social reasons, as you mentioned.) But what of people who aren't temporary guests? There's obviously a substantial Bajoran civilian staff aboard, along with various and sundry people who just seem to hang about or have some semblance of private work on the station (Morn, Garak, etc.)

[Blaston Phools]

I was afraid of this line of argument and as expected i concede thier could be a hitherto unspoken quote electronicaly, biometric etc, form of payment.

And yes, i am attempting to devine reasons for hypothetical possibilities about a television programme concearning people who dont exist. Climb aboard. I mean for all we know people in the 24th century consider used ciggarette butts as currency, it dousnt really matter, what im trying to get to gripps with is the notion of a society that COULD exist without the kind of Economy that we are familiar with, and if so what would it look like and more importantly what would need to fundamentaly change about human nature to accomadate this..

[Mikey]

The issue, as you've noticed, isn't primarily with imagining such a society - it's when we try to imagine such a society interacting in a larger galaxy with cultures that DO have an economy.

[McAvoy]

Since gold pressed latinum seems be a fairly common currency, the Federation must have some sort of Fort Knox-like place where they store their share to help pay for whatever Starfleet needs outside the Federation. I guess it also applies to whatever currency that is also commonplace.