Way of the Warrior Question

[Atekimogus]

Do we have an estimate of how many ships actually attacked DS9 during that episode? The only statement from Kira is a several dozen ships including the Neg'Var.

So far so good, later however, after a short battle (8 ships destroyed, several heavily damaged) they retreat because of Starfleet reinforcments consisting of 6 ships. (1 Galaxy, 2 Excelsiors, 1 Miranda, 2 unspecified).

Seems Klingon ships are highly overestimated.

[Captain Seafort]

So far so good, later however, after a short battle (8 ships destroyed, several heavily damaged) they retreat because of Starfleet reinforcments consisting of 6 ships. (1 Galaxy, 2 Excelsiors, 1 Miranda, 2 unspecified).

Seems Klingon ships are highly overestimated.

It wasn't the strength of the reinforcements that persuaded Gowron to retreat - it was the fact that while the attack on DS9 could be brushed under the carpet, probably on the grounds that it was technically a Bajoran station, engaging the task force was likely to trigger a full scale war between the Empire and the Federation.

[Atekimogus]

Good point, altough I am not sure this was the reason. It was heavily implied first, that the battle would just be to costly for Gowron as soon as the task force arrives and second, that at this point in the show there virtually was no difference between Bajor and the UFP.

On the contrary, in the very same episode a Klingon warrior explicatly states that as long as Odo wears a Bajoran uniform they are allies. Now while it might be true, that the Bajorans might have allied themselves with the Klingons seperatly from the UFP the distinction I got was clearly, that the Klingons are allied with the UFP and therefore, by extension to the bajorans.

Since there are certain steps/degrees in UFP membership it is save to assume that Bajor would at one point be a protectorate of the UFP before becoming a full member... .

No matter, just a minor point really, I just found it interesting that at that point in the show the fleet sizes where still much much smaller than later on. They invaded Cardassia with what? A few dozen ships and this was said to represent a third of the Klingon military. I wonder why they switched later to those huge fleets with thousands of ships. Altough probably more realistic for stellar empires it did invalidate quite a few things we saw from previous trek. (Not to mention the odds, that Sisko anc co. virtually know EVERYONE in Starfleet personally.....)

[Captain Seafort]

Good point, altough I am not sure this was the reason. It was heavily implied first, that the battle would just be to costly for Gowron as soon as the task force arrives

It wasn't a matter of the battle being too costly, but the war - Sisko explicitly pointed out to him that he was facing a war on two fronts. Indeed, "Martok" stated that they could still win the battle (after Starfleet's approach was pointed out), and while the Changeling would naturally want to prolong hostilities it would be counter-productive to try and do so through obvious lies.

at this point in the show there virtually was no difference between Bajor and the UFP.

On the contrary - while the two were allies, and the crew of the station operated as a single entity, they were still clearly distinct entities.

On the contrary, in the very same episode a Klingon warrior explicatly states that as long as Odo wears a Bajoran uniform they are allies. Now while it might be true, that the Bajorans might have allied themselves with the Klingons seperatly from the UFP the distinction I got was clearly, that the Klingons are allied with the UFP and therefore, by extension to the bajorans.

Given the context of that statement it's far more likely that the Klingon was speaking colloquially, rather than giving a nuanced description of the political relationship between Bajor and the Empire.

Since there are certain steps/degrees in UFP membership it is save to assume that Bajor would at one point be a protectorate of the UFP before becoming a full member... .

Why? As late as In the Cards/Call to Arms, not long after they decided to postpone full membership, Bajor signed a non-aggression pact with the Dominion and Kira formally objected to Sisko refusing to hand over the station. Those aren't the actions of a protectorate.

I just found it interesting that at that point in the show the fleet sizes where still much much smaller than later on. They invaded Cardassia with what? A few dozen ships and this was said to represent a third of the Klingon military.

The fleet was a lot stronger than a few dozen ships. We never saw its full extent, and neither did DS9 - the Klingons were constantly cloaking and decloaking to hide their numbers, and there were ships a lot further out than the immediate vicinity of DS9, such as the one that intercepted the Xhosa.

[Mark]

Sorry to necro, but I was just watching Way of the Warrior the other day, and I wondered the same thing. Sikso said, "My reinforcements are closer than yours are. Now, do I tell those ships to stand down, or come in firing?" Hell, they dissolved the Khitomer accords and evicted all Fed diplomats and personnel so they weren't worried about a war with the UFP. Hell, afterwards the whole thing could have been called "The Klingon Conflict".

From a strictly tactical standpoint, one GCS, two Excelsior class, and three Miranda class ships should and would have gotten chewed up by that Klingon armada. Of course, the Klingons may have already suffered damage during the clashes with Cardassian forces, but again, we don't know how many ships were there originally.

[kostmayer]

Well, it was 6 ships and the station but I agree, the Klingon fleet would still have won.

They weren't far off taking the station if you ask me, a few more boarders and I reckon they'd have taken ops. If the Klingons could have got the shields down longer to get more people on board, they might well have taken over DS9. Would have been interesting if they'd decided to keep it.

[Captain Seafort]

From a strictly tactical standpoint, one GCS, two Excelsior class, and three Miranda class ships should and would have gotten chewed up by that Klingon armada. Of course, the Klingons may have already suffered damage during the clashes with Cardassian forces, but again, we don't know how many ships were there originally.

Of course, just as the Iranians could have an Arleigh Burke for breakfast if they wanted to. The real problem, of course, is the same in both cases.

[Mikey]

Good example, Seafort. In addition, I think the point isn't whether the Klingons were afraid of losing against the Fed reinforcements about which Sisko spoke; rather, their concern was going on without the attrition such an engagement would have caused.

[McAvoy]

Well, it was 6 ships and the station but I agree, the Klingon fleet would still have won.

They weren't far off taking the station if you ask me, a few more boarders and I reckon they'd have taken ops. If the Klingons could have got the shields down longer to get more people on board, they might well have taken over DS9. Would have been interesting if they'd decided to keep it.

You can't take Ops if The Sisko and Kira Chuck Norris are defending it.

I always wondered how six ships were a threat to Gowron's fleet. Surely DS9 took out a good portion of that fleet. It was popping BoPs left and right and at least one Vorcha. Other ships may have been damaged, but six ships even with a Galaxy class ship couldn't do anything. Even if somehow the Klingons lost it was only several dozen ships out of a fleet of thousands.

[SolkaTruesilver]

I am not sure sure Starfleet ships wouldn't do much of a difference. Especially the Galaxy class, they have often proven to be quite resilient in battle situation. Adding the fact that they were coming to the aid of a fortified position, they could have inflicted severe damage.

Ships attacking the station probably had their shields focused toward the station. Having an ennemy to come in and flank you at the wrong time would spell disaster to the entire attack force, wouldn't it?

[Captain Seafort]

I am not sure sure Starfleet ships wouldn't do much of a difference. Especially the Galaxy class, they have often proven to be quite resilient in battle situation. Adding the fact that they were coming to the aid of a fortified position, they could have inflicted severe damage.

Ships attacking the station probably had their shields focused toward the station. Having an ennemy to come in and flank you at the wrong time would spell disaster to the entire attack force, wouldn't it?

Not really. The task force would probably have hurt them, but there's only so much anyone can do outnumbered 100-to-1. The real threat was the war with the UFP which would inevitably have followed the destruction of Starfleet vessels.

[SolkaTruesilver]

I am not sure sure Starfleet ships wouldn't do much of a difference. Especially the Galaxy class, they have often proven to be quite resilient in battle situation. Adding the fact that they were coming to the aid of a fortified position, they could have inflicted severe damage.

Ships attacking the station probably had their shields focused toward the station. Having an ennemy to come in and flank you at the wrong time would spell disaster to the entire attack force, wouldn't it?

Not really. The task force would probably have hurt them, but there's only so much anyone can do outnumbered 100-to-1. The real threat was the war with the UFP which would inevitably have followed the destruction of Starfleet vessels.

I don't see how the destruction of Starfleet Vessels would have had deeper political ramifications than the capture by force of a Starfleet/Bajoran outpost. Either way, it's an act of war.

I'd even argue that seizing real estate is a more blatant act of war than destroying a starship.

[Captain Seafort]

I don't see how the destruction of Starfleet Vessels would have had deeper political ramifications than the capture by force of a Starfleet/Bajoran outpost. Either way, it's an act of war.

Because a) DS9 isn't formally a Starfleet instillation, it's Bajoran with Starfleet providing technical assistance in its operation, and b) the Klingons weren't trying to capture it, simply apprehend suspected Founder infiltrators being sheltered aboard. These are both legal fig-leaves, but they allow both the Federation and the Klingons to interpret the events in such a way as to avoid starting a war. Once the Venture's task group was engaged things would have been a lot more serious - there would have been no such fig-leaf, simply Klingon warships attacking Federation warships. There would have been no way to sweep the issue under the carpet.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Oh crap, I forgot the Klingons were there for the Detapa Council. Yhea, agreed then

[kostmayer]

Sisko was ordered not to interfere, instead he tipped off the Cardassians, then went and rescued the Detapa council using force. The Federation could quite reasonably claim that Sisko was acting on his own. It would give the Klingons an excuse not to interpret his actions as an act of war.