Post War Fed Shipbuilding

[Atekimogus]

What about the Intrepid? Seems to fill the place rather nicely. Certainly is bigger and more capable than the Excelsior and if they can upgun her a bit it should fit that role rather nicely imho.

My problem with the Intrepid is that it doesn't seem to me that it stood well to damage. We've seen Excelsiors lose whole sections of the hull and continue fighting which is something we haven't seen from the Intrepid class. Also, the Excelsior is three times the size of the Intrepid. Far more space for upgrades and supplies. Which is why I counted the Excelsior

Is it? Assuming the size comparison on this site is accurate they seem pretty similar in size. Sure the Excelsior is longer but that is mainly because of the huge warp nacelles but considering internal space they should be pretty similar in size.

As for damage resistance....you might be right or not. I remember Excelisior being badly shot up in the DW but I also remember one year of hell for the Intrepid.....it can probalby go both ways. What is more disqualifying for that role is probably the lack of teeth.

Either way, altough the Intrepid is probalby closer in capability to the Excelsior, I always thought that the planned replacement for the Excelsior is the Sovereign. Not only does it look similar, it seems to fulfill a rather similar role altough with greatly enhanced capabilies. It is not a GCS replacement nor a new class of battleship, it's to small for that but it would be an excellent Excelsior-replacement imho.

[Jim]

Maybe the Excelsior class is like the A10 or Bell Iroquois of the starship world...

[Jim]

I came to realize yet another limitation to what ships would be built at this time. Only a few classes were actually still in production at the time of the war. Others were still in service, but not being built. Re-starting production of any of those classes would require the refitting of spacedocks and shipyards. This would add considerable startup time and consume resources.

(I used upgraded numbers if available, data from the listings here)
Classes still in production (crew/kilotons - strength index):

Akira (500/3055 - 1493)
Defiant (50/355 - 1551)
Galaxy (1014/4960 - 1355)
Intrepid (141/700 - 591)
Nebula (780/3575 - 1329)
Sovereign (700/3500 - 3084)
Olympic (360/400 – 124) *medical

Sabers, Steamrunners, etc are all NOT in production at this time.

The Akira class has a similar strength index to the Galaxy and Nebula, but it requires much less crew and less hull resources to build. In the crunch time of trying to field as many ships as possible with an eye to resources… I think that it might be better to go with Akira class over these two. (with Nebula getting the nod over Galaxy as well)

Comparing the Intrepid to the Akira; the Intrepid requires 28% the crew and 23% the hull, but has only 40% the strength. Now this is a question of quantity over quality. Which makes you feel more comfortable: 3 Intrepid or 1 Akira?

The Sovereign needs 40% more crew than the Akira, but brings twice the strength to the party.

Right from the start, I think that the best options would be to build at least a handful of Sovereign class. They would be your main firepower. You crank out a platoon of Defiant class as the backbone of the military. You mass-build Intrepid class to fill in the bulk of your day-to-day operations.
Once you are secure in that you have enough Defiant class to defend against problems, you cut building those and start making Akira class. Their additional size would allow for the science and humanitarian missions as well as their fighting abilities. You could also pull “some” resources from Intrepid production depending on how many you have already put out. By that time you probably have classes graduating and additional personnel ready to crew the bigger ships.

So start with Sovereign, Defiant and Intrepid classes. Eventually cut Defiant production way down, pull back a little on Intrepid production and increase Akira production. You can also have some GCS/NCS production during this time if you have SPECIFIC build shipyards, but you would have to study the opportunity cost of building those as they require more resources for less payoff, but you don’t want shipyards to go to waste.

Thoughts?

[kostmayer]

It isn't just the ships, I can imagine Starfleet would have something of a manpower shortage. Jack of all trade ships would be the way to go.

Only if they keep up their ridiculous entrance requirements. In Wesley's class you had multiple people who were qualified, but they still only took one. Stop that shit and take everyone qualified. Hell, lower your requirements for a while. Proportionally the number of people in Starfleet compared to planetary populations is very low. Starfleet's recruitment policies seem more geared to an organization with a lack of positions and an excess of applicants. Well now they have an excess of positions so take that excess of applicants and stop being so damn picky.

Totally agree with you there, I still can't figure how Starfleet recruits the people it needs if that was an atypical class. How many applicants do they get a year that they can turn away so many excellent candidates?

[Atekimogus]

Totally agree with you there, I still can't figure how Starfleet recruits the people it needs if that was an atypical class. How many applicants do they get a year that they can turn away so many excellent candidates?

Now I might be wrong here but I guess that out of universe, at the time we saw the Wesley recruiting process episode, the idea was probably that of a much much smaller Starfleet. Maybe a dozen or so big ships. Remember how rare it was for two federation ships ever to meet? Remember the huge fleet at Wolf359 which was what? 48 ships or so? Remember the Taskforce during the Klingon civil war?

It wasn't until late in DS9 that we got a glimpse that STarfleet might actually be A LOT bigger than we thought.

Considering this I think it might very well be that Starfleet was so picky for a time. Remember it was peace and also the recruiting process was just for officers. Also consider that they not only have the whole 22th century earth to recruit from but also vulcan and other similarily developed planets. Billions of people for a handful of ships.

Lets go crazy and assume they have 1000 Galaxy class ships. Lets assume that all crew consists of officers. So you roughly need 1000x1000 people. Only 1000000 people, I would assume earth alone could supply as many recruits. Now consider they have, oh I don't know....5-6 planets with more than 5 billion people, a very conservative estimate, wouldn't you say?

Considering this background I would say that during peacetime, even if we all along assumed that Starfleet was as big as shown in the Dominion War, Starfleet can indeed be rather picky when it comes to choosing their officers.

[kostmayer]

Fair points, and I agree about Starfleet appearing to be a lot smaller in the TNG era.

However, as far as I'm aware, Starfleet Academy is the only Academy on Earth. If they only recruit 1 person a year, and other worlds do the same, thats only 1000 new recruits. Barely enough for one ship.

And Starfleet is more then just the ships. Theres the Starbases (huge in some cases), Outposts, ground staff.. doesn't make sense to me at all.

[McAvoy]

I don't think Starfleet would have a shortage of people wanting to join Starfleet. Manning the ships shouldn't be a problem since they really do not require a large crew. The problem would be a lack of experience. Of course those who survived would move up the command ladder quicker than before, but you will have a huge amount of new officers and enlisted personnel in relation to the rest of Starfleet. That would be for the ship personnel, who knows what kind of losses Starfleet took on the ground.

I think the Defiant class would definitely be useful in taking over the patrol vessel role which can free up other ships that have more capabilities to do other things. I do think the Intrepid class fits well as a medium sized ship. It's fast, doesn't require a large crew, has a good amount of crew comforts and powerful enough to handle anything but a capital ship.

I do think this would a prime time to have Starfleet use specialized ships like the Nova or Defiant classes built in numbers to free up the multi-purpose ships like the Nebula, Intrepid, Galaxy, Ambassador class ships to do more important things.

I do agree that Starfleet should design or modify an exisiting ship design to fit the role of a cheap easily mass produced class to fill in the fleet ranks. Perhaps something that is in the same strength as a BoP or a Jem'Hadar attack ship.

I do think Starfleet should not stop building even temporarily large ships like the Sovereign, Nebula and Galaxy classes, but perhaps at slightly reduced level to free up the resources and manpower to build the smaller ships.

[Atekimogus]

I do agree that Starfleet should design or modify an exisiting ship design to fit the role of a cheap easily mass produced class to fill in the fleet ranks. Perhaps something that is in the same strength as a BoP or a Jem'Hadar attack ship.

I agree with your post except this part. The time for cheap and easily mass produced ships is when the war is in full swing and ships have a life expectance which doesn't justify any fancy stuff. No need to build chips which are expected to last for 50-100 years when they got destroyed in the next few months.

However in peace, it is usually more cost effective to build durable, low maintenance quality ships with a high service life-cycle. Ships you don't need to replace completely every 1-5 years.

However, if there is in the meantime a need for a BoP like ship as a stopgap measure until they can built new and better ships I would imagine that most missions can be completed by runabouts and the remaining Mirandas, altough I cannot really see a need for such a ship for starfleet. A BoP is basically a space u-boot designed to attack convois and for piracy, not something the federation has on it's mission requirements. And a Defiant seems a more than adequate counter for such threats.

[McAvoy]

I didn't mean cheap as in durable ships but cheap as in resources. IMO, the perfect ship to build in numbers is the Saber class. That and I have soft spot for it too. Don't know why.

In times of war even durable built to last ships get simply worn out. Many of the British ships after WW1 were worn out and would have require extensive overhauling. This doesn't even mean battle damage that was repaired, but ships that were driven hard and fast for prolonged periods of time. So the hulls had metal fatigue, machinery was worn, major corrosion all over the place.

[Deepcrush]

Is it? Assuming the size comparison on this site is accurate they seem pretty similar in size. Sure the Excelsior is longer but that is mainly because of the huge warp nacelles but considering internal space they should be pretty similar in size.

A side view of a ship's height and length does not tell the total size, mass or volume of a ship.

As for damage resistance....you might be right or not. I remember Excelisior being badly shot up in the DW but I also remember one year of hell for the Intrepid.....it can probalby go both ways. What is more disqualifying for that role is probably the lack of teeth.

Year of Hell was Voyager on the run, falling apart in to process. Not a positive example of battle standing. As you point out, the Intrepid lacks "teeth" to match what an Excelsior can be fitted to.

Either way, altough the Intrepid is probalby closer in capability to the Excelsior, I always thought that the planned replacement for the Excelsior is the Sovereign. Not only does it look similar, it seems to fulfill a rather similar role altough with greatly enhanced capabilies. It is not a GCS replacement nor a new class of battleship, it's to small for that but it would be an excellent Excelsior-replacement imho.

Doubtful that the Sov is the Excelsior replacement. The Excelsior was a work horse design, used as a JoaT ship where the Sov clearly figures combat above all other fields. The GCS/NCS were more likely the intended replacements for the Excelsior.

Thoughts?

Crew is mostly meaningless when considering cruisers. The UFP is large enough that short of making one of its planets into a Forge-World, it will never build more ships then it can crew. What matters to the UFP for ship production is construction time and material use.

[Atekimogus]

Is it? Assuming the size comparison on this site is accurate they seem pretty similar in size. Sure the Excelsior is longer but that is mainly because of the huge warp nacelles but considering internal space they should be pretty similar in size.

A side view of a ship's height and length does not tell the total size, mass or volume of a ship.

Yeah...but nerd as I am I happen to know both 3D models so the length of the ship is pretty much everything I need to accuratly compare those two and while the Excelsior is bigger, it is also more gracefully and lightly build than the fat ugly Intrepid, so overall they are very similar in size.

Doubtful that the Sov is the Excelsior replacement. The Excelsior was a work horse design, used as a JoaT ship where the Sov clearly figures combat above all other fields. The GCS/NCS were more likely the intended replacements for the Excelsior.

Exactly. The GCS surley was not a workhorse design. The NCS maybe but both where of a size and magnitude greater than the Excelsior that it is doubtful they would waste those few ships on Excelsior duties or ever could have them in adequate numbers to replace the Excelsior. (Just consider the waste of personelle, and resources if you use a GCS or NCS the next time an Admiral needs a ride to a more capable ship....)

Remember, Excelsior also started not as a workhorse design but as the best ship they could build and only became a workhorse design much later on. Both the GCS and NCS are probably to ressource intensive, costly and frankly not worth to build in greater numbers. Why waste science labs, accomodations etc. on a ship tasked with patroling the dead end of the galaxy?

Sovereigns, which again, seem not more combat oriented than the old constitutions or Excelsiors, fit the bill much better and I could well imagine that given enough time those ships replace the Excelsiors in the role they now have. They obviously are enough a JoAt ship to handle most things one can expect without wasting huge ressources on science and ambassadorial equipment which in their role would hardly be ever used.

[Captain Seafort]

Remember, Excelsior also started not as a workhorse design but as the best ship they could build and only became a workhorse design much later on. Both the GCS and NCS are probably to ressource intensive, costly and frankly not worth to build in greater numbers. Why waste science labs, accomodations etc. on a ship tasked with patroling the dead end of the galaxy?

Because this is Starfleet. We've gone over why combining the combat and scientific roles into the same class is a bad thing a hundred times over, but at the end of the day that's what Starfleet does, and it considers the scientific job to be the most important (at least pre-Wolf, when the GCS and NCS were designed).

Sovereigns, which again, seem not more combat oriented than the old constitutions or Excelsiors

No more combat orientated than a couple of proper warships... That's what the Connie and Ex were.

[Atekimogus]

Because this is Starfleet. We've gone over why combining the combat and scientific roles into the same class is a bad thing a hundred times over, but at the end of the day that's what Starfleet does, and it considers the scientific job to be the most important (at least pre-Wolf, when the GCS and NCS were designed).

I am not sure what you are implying. The point remains that the sheer size of the Galaxy and NCS prevents them from ever becoming the workhorse of Starfleet as the Excelsior was, regardless if their focus lies on science, war or whatever for both roles they have already more efficient candidates.

Sovereigns, which again, seem not more combat oriented than the old constitutions or Excelsiors

No more combat orientated than a couple of proper warships... That's what the Connie and Ex were.

TOS Starfleet was certainly more militaristic. As for the ships.......I get the gist of what you are saying and I do agree to a point.......but honestly, when the push comes to shove didn't EVERY starfleet ship we EVER saw did exactly the same thing?

They all seemed to be jack of all trades ships with more or less exactly the same balance between science and military capability. The only exception being the Defiant, heck and even that ship performed exactly as every other ship, made scans and science runs when needed. (One could also argue that the GCS is more specialized with having families onboard, but considering that AT THAT TIME you also had families on Miranda class ships it has probably more to do with crew-policy than with ship design. Yeah yeah...the GCS where pure science ships, they just happen to have torpedo-launcers the size of a building and the biggest guns they could fit onto them running the length of the ship. Typical UFP hypocricy imho )

Suffice it to say that every ship they ever classified as Heavy Cruiser/Explorer and whatnot seems rather balanced and I see no reason why the Sovereign should be any different.

[Captain Seafort]

I am not sure what you are implying.

You asked "why waste science labs, accomodations etc. on a ship tasked with patroling the dead end of the galaxy?" The answer is because by Starfleet doctrine, patrolling the ass-end of the galaxy is all about science.

The point remains that the sheer size of the Galaxy and NCS prevents them from ever becoming the workhorse of Starfleet as the Excelsior was

Why? In her day Excelsior herself was, by a very long way, the largest and most powerful ship in Starfleet. She's dwarfed by the GCS. There's nothing to prevent the GCS eventually being utterly dwarfed by some future ship.

TOS Starfleet was certainly more militaristic. As for the ships.......I get the gist of what you are saying and I do agree to a point.......but honestly, when the push comes to shove didn't EVERY starfleet ship we EVER saw did exactly the same thing?

True, but there's a very big difference between a ship actually doing something and being originally designed to do it.

One could also argue that the GCS is more specialized with having families onboard, but considering that AT THAT TIME you also had families on Miranda class ships it has probably more to do with crew-policy than with ship design.

True, but look at the designs of the GCS and the Miranda. The former is clearly built from the ground up to carry large numbers of civilians, given the number of very large open areas in addition to the normal corridors. The Miranda is not, and neither is the Sov.

Suffice it to say that every ship they ever classified as Heavy Cruiser/Explorer and whatnot seems rather balanced and I see no reason why the Sovereign should be any different.

When have we seen a civilian on the E-E? When have we heard one mentioned? When have we seen any of the civilian-centric architecture we saw on the E-D? Never. On the contrary, we've seen a ship positively bristling with weapons, externally and internally.

[Atekimogus]

I am not sure what you are implying.

You asked "why waste science labs, accomodations etc. on a ship tasked with patroling the dead end of the galaxy?" The answer is because by Starfleet doctrine, patrolling the ass-end of the galaxy is all about science.

As I was pointing out that you still won't use a GCS/NCS ship to do it because you would be hauling alot of dead space around the galaxy. The Sovereign seems much more balanced and therefore a better candidte for the future backbone of the fleet role, like current Excelsiors.

Why? In her day Excelsior herself was, by a very long way, the largest and most powerful ship in Starfleet. She's dwarfed by the GCS. There's nothing to prevent the GCS eventually being utterly dwarfed by some future ship.

Ok I'll bite, theoretically it is quite possible. However it seems that the trend is going towards smaller ships. Now assuming that UFP is on the same technological level as the romulan empire - which builds even bigger ships - my guess is that huge ships aren't that impossible to build, but that there are other practical considerations.

Maybe it's not impossible for the GCS to became the backbone of the fleet, however every time you just let them patrol to border, escort a convoy etc. you waste much of the ships capabilites. TAke an even bigger ship with even more crew for the same task and you are wasting even more man hours.

Obviously the Excelsior found the exact sweat-spot for being effictive in the roles they played while still retaining enough science, ambassadorial etc. capabilites to handle the few unexpected situations and emergencies.

True, but look at the designs of the GCS and the Miranda. The former is clearly built from the ground up to carry large numbers of civilians, given the number of very large open areas in addition to the normal corridors. The Miranda is not, and neither is the Sov.

Which should make the Sovereign the ideal Excelsior replacement, don't you think?

Suffice it to say that every ship they ever classified as Heavy Cruiser/Explorer and whatnot seems rather balanced and I see no reason why the Sovereign should be any different.

When have we seen a civilian on the E-E? When have we heard one mentioned? When have we seen any of the civilian-centric architecture we saw on the E-D? Never. On the contrary, we've seen a ship positively bristling with weapons, externally and internally.

Why you single out the E-D I do not know since I was comparing the Sovereing more to the Constitutions and Excelsiors here. However apart from the so called civilian-centric architecture (I don't know....the GCS is just a big ass ship with room to spare, heck rip out the carpet and install diamandplate if it makes you feel better but I havent seen much which couldn't be converted into more usefull space within a few weeks) I wouldn't call the Sovereign bristling with weapons. 360° Phaser coverage is something other ships too have and while the amount of QT/PT tubes seems impressive they all seem to be of the more simply, one/two burst kind (similar to what the Intrepid or E-A had) with the exception of the turret. And while I always thought that 276 Torpedoes on the GCS is a bad joke, seeing the Sov run out of Torpedoes in Nemesis didn't sit well with me at all.

It's nice...but nothing special imho.