Post War Fed Shipbuilding

[mwhittington]

The Sovs were built more as a warship than the GCS, and here is the logic behind my statement:
1. The GCS was built to carry civilians aboard her, namely the families of the crew and others. Not in one movie that features E-E do we see civilians living on board.
2. The GCS was larger in volume and had more decks to make room, not only for said families, but also for the dozens of SCIENCE STATIONS on board.

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

Excelsiors, i can see being kept until more modern ships can be built. Miranda's? Scrap them ASAP.

[Captain Seafort]

Miranda's? Scrap them ASAP.

Why? They may be useless junk in anything resembling a fleet action, but as a token Starfleet presence in the arse-end of nowhere they've still got a role to play.

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

Miranda's? Scrap them ASAP.

Why? They may be useless junk in anything resembling a fleet action, but as a token Starfleet presence in the arse-end of nowhere they've still got a role to play.

Hmm, okay. I can see that. But anything else would be pushing your luck more than playing against Jim Kirk in fizzbin or trying to out-intimidate the Sisko.

[Atekimogus]

Wait... where is there a canon cross-section (besides an illegible MSD) of a Sov class showing all the non-military but eminently utilitarian equipment that a GCS has?

Not sure what you mean to be honest. There is a huge MSD on the Sov-Bridge and in the turbolifts and there is a huge GCS- MSD in engineering. Both MSDs show every major system (warpcoils, warpdrive, M-AM reactor, computer core, shuttlebay etc.etc.) except phaser banks and shieldgrid, however those are visible on the physical model and can be compared.

As for the canon part, you will find the GCS-MSD used in the show in the TNG technical manual and you can find the Sov-MSD used for the movies on John Eaves (designer of the E-E) blog.

Or you just google GCS/Sov-MSD, or if that is not canonical enough just watch Generations, FC or Nemesis in 1080i, there are quite enough detailed shots for you for being able to make out where most of the major systems are located and how much space they use up, at least on the y,x-axis. (Try ExAstris, there are even a few SoV-msd screenshots from the movies)

Suffice it to say that GCS and Sov have a nearly identical layout and dedicate roughly the same amount of space towards their major systems.

[Mikey]

You're not mentioning the things about which I'm asking, though. Do those diagrams show the arboretum on the Sovereign? The same amount of space dedicated to ambassadorial accomodations as on the GCS? To stellar cartography? To xenobiology labs? Etc., etc., ad nauseum. I will check out the things you mention when I get a chance; but my visceral reaction says, "No, they don't."

[McAvoy]

Not to mention it is a slice down the middle of the ship too. Not exactly accurate to tell what is taking up space.

I think it's the general idea that every new Enterprise should be better than the last. Except for E-A, but I guess you could make the point that it might be newer than the E-nil or even just refitted.

[Deepcrush]

Getting back to the topic in an honest fashion. Post War fleet production... all points are of course IMO.

Command / Long Range Explorer - GCS and NCS still easily fit these roles. Once refitted and given proper safety support, these classes have been shown effective for just about any role they could be needed for. Though continued production would seem to be a waste for the time being as SF needs to focus on replacing its combat losses.

Medium Cruiser/Long range patrol - With the Sov showing as well as it did I wouldn't be surprised if it replaced GCS and NCS production. There are enough GCS/NCS in service to simply maintain long range exploration and the Sov is needed to replace the loss of power to the larger SF bracket. While the Akira, being slightly smaller, may be a less costly choice. The Sov itself seems to exceed the Akira by all impression I can gather. So while the Sov is likely the more costly option, it is also the more cost effective option.

Next would be the lighter ship fields which I'll just call the "light cruiser". This it tough since as I see it SF lacks a good light cruiser. There are no lack of options in this field, but to me none are truly "effective" in fitting the role. The Excelsior, tried and true warhorse of the Federation which shown by Lakota can be heavily refitted. Still, in a slugging match of phasers she only broke even in a battle against the smaller and cheaper Defiant. Next would be the Prometheus class, but the design leads me to believe that like the Lakota Refit, she's simply to much trouble. It leaves me feeling that a down scaled Akira would suit the role well or even a revisited Ambassador Class design. To fill the role for the present, Lakota Refits are acceptable but they don't serve the long term need of a modern warship to fill the position.

The lower end of the combat field would be a Destroyer or Heavy System Monitor. As far as I've seen, the Defiant just matches this perfectly. A squadron of them could defend any system out there from anything but a fleet scale attack. Small crews and what seemed to be small levels of upkeep when not flying around in constant battle with a major fleet battles. Makes the perfect ship class for low priority sectors that still need a defense.

For short range exploration and civilian tasks. The Nova and Intrepid fit this well enough and are small enough to be built in large numbers as to maintain the Federation's need of not looking like a military born power.

All in all, the UFP suffers from having to many ship classes. In the future, production needs to be more heavily focused on gaps in ability. The Dominion War in my opinion would have greatly helped the UFP in the coming times as it forced the UFP to look at its weaknesses and not just its image.

[Atekimogus]

You're not mentioning the things about which I'm asking, though. Do those diagrams show the arboretum on the Sovereign? The same amount of space dedicated to ambassadorial accomodations as on the GCS? To stellar cartography? To xenobiology labs? Etc., etc., ad nauseum. I will check out the things you mention when I get a chance; but my visceral reaction says, "No, they don't."

Well it's called master SYSTEM display, and as such it only displays major SYSTEMS. So if you have some empty space on that diagramme than it isn't dedicated to the weapons SYSTEM otherwise it would show up on the master SYSTEM display.

So no, you don't see there exactly what empty space is dedicated to what function, be it accomodations or arboretum but what you do see is the overall layout and how many space is dedicated to certain systems. (Also, of course the Sovereign does not dedicate as much total space to non-military things as the GCS because it's much smaller. I am talking about proportions and there they seem pretty much equal in the division of available space)

Not to mention it is a slice down the middle of the ship too. Not exactly accurate to tell what is taking up space.

True, however in most cases you can make pretty accurate guesses because of the limitations of the physical model. Comparing the warpdrive on the MSD with the physical model gives you a good idea about the size, you know what space the torpedoturret and maindeflector need, you know that the warpcore does not stretch the whole breath of the ship, M-AM-pods are also limited in space because of the ships dimension as are the shuttlebays etc.ect., so I don't really agree with you there. A cut-away view combined with the 3-D model gives you more than enough to accuratley estimate the size of major systems.

From the top of my head the only systems we don't know exactly how much space they use from the MSD is the computercore (which might be as wide as the whole saucer, though unlikely) and the turboliftshafts.

Next would be the lighter ship fields which I'll just call the "light cruiser". This it tough since as I see it SF lacks a good light cruiser. There are no lack of options in this field, but to me none are truly "effective" in fitting the role.

What about the Intrepid? Seems to fill the place rather nicely. Certainly is bigger and more capable than the Excelsior and if they can upgun her a bit it should fit that role rather nicely imho.

As for the rest, reasonable thought out post, especially about the many shipclasses causing problems. I agree and I always rather liked the idea of certain design features being found on more ship classes, like the Constitution/Miranda combo, or the GCS/NCS combo. Seemed always like a practical no nonsense approach to me.

[Jim]

That is hell of an assumption imho since we do not really know what either of those have at that timeframe...

Not really. I use the data presented by this website as a foundation for the view point. The ship strength calculators and such. Where the GCS = 1000. You can compare offensive, defensive capabilities, speed and utility across classes and races.

[Jim]

One thing that I have no grounds for opinion on... what about the build time/cost of the technology? Would the specific components of a Defiant engine/core/weapons/shields ststems actually make it more "expensive" than an Akira?

It is possible that two ships of similar size would have a similar build time, but one would "cost" MUCH more is terms of resources.

Where would the limiting factore be? Components for the warp cores? Weapos/defense systems? Trained crew? Is it actually possible that they would focus of building ships that require less crew not because of any build time or cost consideration, but simply because they don't have enough trained crew to properly fly the ships?

[Deepcrush]

What about the Intrepid? Seems to fill the place rather nicely. Certainly is bigger and more capable than the Excelsior and if they can upgun her a bit it should fit that role rather nicely imho.

My problem with the Intrepid is that it doesn't seem to me that it stood well to damage. We've seen Excelsiors lose whole sections of the hull and continue fighting which is something we haven't seen from the Intrepid class. Also, the Excelsior is three times the size of the Intrepid. Far more space for upgrades and supplies. Which is why I counted the Excelsior

As for the rest, reasonable thought out post, especially about the many shipclasses causing problems. I agree and I always rather liked the idea of certain design features being found on more ship classes, like the Constitution/Miranda combo, or the GCS/NCS combo. Seemed always like a practical no nonsense approach to me.

Use of exchangeable parts and materials is always important with maintaining a fleet.

[Tyyr]

It isn't just the ships, I can imagine Starfleet would have something of a manpower shortage. Jack of all trade ships would be the way to go.

Only if they keep up their ridiculous entrance requirements. In Wesley's class you had multiple people who were qualified, but they still only took one. Stop that shit and take everyone qualified. Hell, lower your requirements for a while. Proportionally the number of people in Starfleet compared to planetary populations is very low. Starfleet's recruitment policies seem more geared to an organization with a lack of positions and an excess of applicants. Well now they have an excess of positions so take that excess of applicants and stop being so damn picky.

No Starfleet would not retire any ships even the worn out ones until they can be replaced and that is until the fleet is up to optimal strength.

Yeah, so long as it can warp and hold air expect it to stay in service for a good while longer. Mirandas and Excelsiors will be common sights for a good long while.

Starfleet's biggest issues at the moment are the span of space it has to cover and defense. They need hulls in space to handle all the day to day assignments they have to handle. Patrol, showing the flag, transport, medical, etc. They have commitments to their member worlds they have to uphold. So, they need hulls in space. Hence I'd expect them to look for a Miranda sized ship to mass produce, maybe several. A ship that's not particularly good at anything but its capable of handling patrols, carrying science crews, doing all the odd jobs Starfleet has to do. Not a jack-of-all-trades ship, just a ship. The Oliver Hazard Perry class of starships. I'd probably look for something that included a "mission" area in the design. A section of the ship left more or less empty. The main ship is mass produced and when the ship goes in for fitting out whatever Starfleet really needs at the moment they put into the mission area. More guns to make a patrol ship. Better sensors and labs for a science ship. Cargo holds for a transport. Whatever. Not easily interchangable, just set up to make fitting out simpler. Sort of like the German's Mako class of ships. Sure you can change the weapons fit out, but it's not simple. It's more for customization during construction than regular refittings.

And they just make a shit ton of those ships. Heck, the Intrepid is relatively quick vessel in the right size range. It doesn't seem to want to explode at the drop of a hat and looks to be relatively roomy. It's fairly up to date so you wouldn't really be too far behind the tech curve with them either.

Ships like the Galaxy's would be fitted out and probably continue to be built. I'd be pushing for as many Nebulas as you could crank out too. However at first I suspect these lines would be pushed to their existing limit and that's about it. Save the resources for the smaller ships. Right now one big super capable ship isn't as useful to them as eight less capable ships.

For defense I'd expect them to build ships like the Sovereign at full speed, as many as they possibly can. Depending on the in universe role and judgement of the Akira and Prometheus I'd expect they'd go into high rate production as well if applicable. The Defiants are a good bang for the buck packing Galaxy level firepower in an Intrepid sized package. Not great for long term patrols but stationing them at border starbases for deployments to trouble spots would net you a lot of quick firepower.

All this is based on one big assumption on my part, that right now Starfleet's biggest problem is simply volume. They need ships. The ships that took the worst beatings were their newest and biggest ships. Even if you say they suffered 40% losses they likely took those losses in the Excelsiors, Nebulas, and other classes that were the backbone of the fleet leaving them with lots and lots of Novas and Oberths and similar classes wholly unsuited for combat. So while they might have only taken 40% losses those losses were heavily biased towards the more capable, more advanced, more modern ships.

[Deepcrush]

All this is based on one big assumption on my part, that right now Starfleet's biggest problem is simply volume. They need ships. The ships that took the worst beatings were their newest and biggest ships. Even if you say they suffered 40% losses they likely took those losses in the Excelsiors, Nebulas, and other classes that were the backbone of the fleet leaving them with lots and lots of Novas and Oberths and similar classes wholly unsuited for combat. So while they might have only taken 40% losses those losses were heavily biased towards the more capable, more advanced, more modern ships.

Really? Because most the losses I saw were older ships. Excelsiors, Mirandas, Sabers, Norways... etc suffered horrible losses. In the while, from what we saw the newer ships such as GCS, NCS, Defiants and Akiras fair pretty well.

[Tyyr]

And how many Oberths did we see get wasted? Novas? Excelsiors, Mirandas, and the like fall under the more capable heading. They're ships that Starfleet relied on to handle much of the day to day upkeep in its borders. While the GCS and others didn't get popped like candy the way some others did they were still in the thick of the fighting taking damage and losses while the other classes we've seen as Starfleet's minor ships were no where to be seen in the battles and for good reason. So ships like the Oberths, Novas, and Olympics will now be a much larger percentage of Starfleet than they were before the war.