Faults of The Sisko

[Atekimogus]

That made me think, I do not recall many inages of actual damage during the TNG years. I remember obvious hull damge shown in Khan, and damage shown in VOY... but I really do not recall seeing damage in the TNG tv series.

First Contact with the Borg, E-D looses a few sections/decks.

Now that is maybe a bit of a stretch but....

During ENT we had something called polarized armor....which was a kinda forcefield strengthening the material itself (kinda like a military grade SIF), which means that there was no visible effect and weapons still did some damage.

Now what if all ships right to the TNG era had a similar system, just more advanced, working a bit different but essentially the same way, since force field bubbles preventing damage from reaching the ship where just not effective enough? Flash forward to TWoK or TuC. They take damage in just the same way the NX Enterprise did, their hull get shoot and burned and scorched despite shields being up.

Would there be anything contradictory to that prior to TNG? Are there instances hinting at shields being a classical forcefield or bubble and not just a form of "polarized armor"?

[Mikey]

polarized armor....which was a kinda forcefield strengthening the material itself (kinda like a military grade SIF),

What is the source for this? Maybe I missed something, but I sort of assumed that "polarized armor" meant something along the lines of armor... that was polarized. Whether than meant "polarized" as in assuming an anionic or cationic property, or "polarized" as in aligning some sort of matrix to deny passage to a majority of EM radiation vibrational directions, IDK.

Would there be anything contradictory to that prior to TNG? Are there instances hinting at shields being a classical forcefield or bubble and not just a form of "polarized armor"?

Yes, there is contradictory evidence which we've just discussed. In the TWoK, we see the diagnostic monitor of the shields raising and lowering, which clearly depicts them as conformal but most definitely superimposed to the hull (rather than integral to it.)

[Atekimogus]

polarized armor....which was a kinda forcefield strengthening the material itself (kinda like a military grade SIF),

What is the source for this? Maybe I missed something, but I sort of assumed that "polarized armor" meant something along the lines of armor... that was polarized. Whether than meant "polarized" as in assuming an anionic or cationic property, or "polarized" as in aligning some sort of matrix to deny passage to a majority of EM radiation vibrational directions, IDK.

Also from Drexlers blog iirc, basically it was asked how polarized armor works and they said it made the armor basically really really really hard (fill in any technobabble you like, a field strengthening molecular bonds or something along these lines was used iirc)

Would there be anything contradictory to that prior to TNG? Are there instances hinting at shields being a classical forcefield or bubble and not just a form of "polarized armor"?

Yes, there is contradictory evidence which we've just discussed. In the TWoK, we see the diagnostic monitor of the shields raising and lowering, which clearly depicts them as conformal but most definitely superimposed to the hull (rather than integral to it.)

How is that contradictory? A diagnostic monitor gives no indication whatsoever how the "shield" actually works, if it is a forcefield or just a section of "polarized" armor. The same monitor could easily have been used for the NX Enterprise since the "polarised" armor works exactly the same as the classical shields (given a percentage value etc. etc.).

(If you bother to look at a close up of the monitor you are able to make out numerical values for each point represented, like every diagnostic monitor it is designed to give you the information you need in the best way possible, it is not an actual design schematic)

What I would deem contraditcory is any form of shield effect (hull conformal or not) which is markedly different from what we've seen from the NX Enterprise until TNG. If not, ships using some sort of polarised armor effect as shields prior to TNG seems a workable theory and explains the damage suffered in TwoC and TuC despite activated shields.

[Mikey]

Also from Drexlers blog iirc, basically it was asked how polarized armor works and they said it made the armor basically really really really hard (fill in any technobabble you like, a field strengthening molecular bonds or something along these lines was used iirc)

All of which doesn't say anything about using a force field. In fact, "polarizing" a metallic substance by aligning the molecules (crystallizing it, in a sense) would also make the material harder as well as fit the naming convention better.

How is that contradictory? A diagnostic monitor gives no indication whatsoever how the "shield" actually works, if it is a forcefield or just a section of "polarized" armor. The same monitor could easily have been used for the NX Enterprise since the "polarised" armor works exactly the same as the classical shields (given a percentage value etc. etc.).

(If you bother to look at a close up of the monitor you are able to make out numerical values for each point represented, like every diagnostic monitor it is designed to give you the information you need in the best way possible, it is not an actual design schematic)

What I would deem contraditcory is any form of shield effect (hull conformal or not) which is markedly different from what we've seen from the NX Enterprise until TNG. If not, ships using some sort of polarised armor effect as shields prior to TNG seems a workable theory and explains the damage suffered in TwoC and TuC despite activated shields.

OK, I shouldn't have said "diagnostic." There is a picture of the shields going up around the ship in a conformal, but not integral, pattern. Unless proven otherwise by dialogue, etc., to me that means shields external to the hull.

[Atekimogus]

All of which doesn't say anything about using a force field. In fact, "polarizing" a metallic substance by aligning the molecules (crystallizing it, in a sense) would also make the material harder as well as fit the naming convention better.

It doesn't matter if there is an actual "forcefield" or not, or how "exactly" polarized armor works since all is technobabble anyhow.

All I was suggesting and theorizing was that maybe Starfleet ships during the Kirk era (TwoK and TuC) were using shields more akin to the NX Enterprise ones than the actual forcefields we see from TNG onwards.

Hence the scorching and battledamage despite raised and intact shields in those scenarios.

(Polarized armor and shields are completely interchangeble terms from where I am standing, since both are defensive systems preventing damage and seem to require energy. Both systems loose energy when being hit and cease function at 0%. So altough the mechanic is supposed to be completely different (hardening armor vs. forcefield protection) in reality they work similar enough to at least consider the theory that the ToS, TmP enterprise still uses the former system imho, except if we saw an actual forcefield somewhere in that timeframe, which I am not sure of, hence my question.

OK, I shouldn't have said "diagnostic." There is a picture of the shields going up around the ship in a conformal, but not integral, pattern. Unless proven otherwise by dialogue, etc., to me that means shields external to the hull.

I am pretty sure I know what you are talking about and no, it really gives no hint as to what form the shield has. If it is a bubble, hull conformal or even something different, like polarized armor.

http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/bl ... an0077.jpg

All it does it give the bridge crew a quick and dirty lock about the status of the shields in a certain era of the ship, nothing more. I wouldn't take it as indication as to what form the shield has. Given that we do not see values for the top, bottom eras of the ship it is safe to assume that some of those shield dots are representing those nonetheless, and are just rolled into one 2D schematic for a quicker overview.

[Mikey]

To the viewer, the functioning of shields and "polarized armor" are interchangeable. IU, however, the mechanisms were the same there wouldn't be a difference in the naming convention.

BTW, that isn't the pic I meant. I'll see if I can find a pic later.

[Atekimogus]

To the viewer, the functioning of shields and "polarized armor" are interchangeable. IU, however, the mechanisms were the same there wouldn't be a difference in the naming convention.

Not necessarily. There are decades between Archer and Kirk, I don't find it a stretch that the defensive system got named "shields" at one point or another and the name was kept simply because of familiarity even when the actual mechanism is a slightly different one. Evenmoreso when they, for all intends and purpose, work very very similar.

BTW, that isn't the pic I meant. I'll see if I can find a pic later.

I know, it's the shield monitor from the Enterprise bridge, the reliant one is pretty much the same just with the reliant and with dots insteat of triangles representing the shields, in short...it's pretty much the same. (if I am not mistaken)

[Mikey]

Yeah, the thing with this one is that it shows (in what is apparently real time) the shields raising a/o lowering outside but along the hull.

[alexmann]

Yeah, it definitely was conformal shielding seperate from the hull.

[Jim]

http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/bl ... an0077.jpg

All it does it give the bridge crew a quick and dirty lock about the status of the shields in a certain era of the ship, nothing more. I wouldn't take it as indication as to what form the shield has. Given that we do not see values for the top, bottom eras of the ship it is safe to assume that some of those shield dots are representing those nonetheless, and are just rolled into one 2D schematic for a quicker overview.

I agree that you can not take this diagram or the diepiction in TWOK as a disply of the "actual" shields as they basically just show a belt. Even when they show portions of the shield missing in TWOK... It doesn't take into account any shielding on the top of the craft or the bottom. Just a belt around the sides.

[Atekimogus]

Yeah, the thing with this one is that it shows (in what is apparently real time) the shields raising a/o lowering outside but along the hull.

Of course it shows a shield effect of whatever form being lowered/raised but that doesn't mean we get to know the specifics of how the shield works.

For example, the same diagramme could be used on the NX Enterprise to show me in real time which sections of the ships armor are now being polarized.

To bring another example, the shield-diagramme used on the bridge of the E-E was also rather different from the shield effect we see outside of the ship.

I think my theory that they used some sort of polarized armor as "shields" in the Kirk era fits rather nicely what we see. Only that we have again certain instances were we see no shield effect whatsoever during DS9 fleet-battles doesn't really fit this but then we know they just are absent because of budgetary/CGI reasons........

[Mikey]

I think my theory that they used some sort of polarized armor as "shields" in the Kirk era fits rather nicely what we see.

That would more properly be called an hypothesis rather than a theory, and it fits nothing save what you prefer to believe. Just the fact of a different naming convention would, in the absence of other evidence one way or the other, point toward a different mechanism; and while you may disregard the evidence I mentioned showing the difference, disregarding it doesn't somehow create evidence which corroborates your point of view. You may be absolutely correct, of course; but there is nothing which canonically supports that.

[Atekimogus]

That would more properly be called an hypothesis rather than a theory, and it fits nothing save what you prefer to believe. Just the fact of a different naming convention would, in the absence of other evidence one way or the other, point toward a different mechanism; and while you may disregard the evidence I mentioned showing the difference, disregarding it doesn't somehow create evidence which corroborates your point of view. You may be absolutely correct, of course; but there is nothing which canonically supports that.

Well, I disregard your "evidence" since it doesn't prove anything, thats all. You could very well have a bridge-monitor showing a green schematic of the warp core, indicating that it works within parameters and goes red if something goes critical. That doesn't mean your warp-core emits green light when everything is ok.

It is true though that I did indeed present a hypothesis, not a theory however if it fits nothing we have seen I would like you to point those instances out to me! As I said, I am not sure if we ever saw a force-field shield effect prior to TNG, so I am rather openminded about it.

And if there isn't such an instance I am perfectly aware that this doesn't prove me right, it just doesn't disprove my hypothesis at which point everyone is perfectly free to believe what he/she want's to believe.

All I am saying is that the shields prior to TNG seem to work rather more than those on the NX Enterprise than those on TNG ships, so maybe they are based on a similar principle. Agree or disagree, like it or don't like it. Pretty much up to you

[Mikey]

As I said, that's fine - what doesn't work is saying that there is positive evidence for such a viewpoint. There may not be (IYO) evidence against it, but again that doesn't of itself translate to evidence for it.

[Captain Seafort]

Yeah, it definitely was conformal shielding seperate from the hull.

We don't know what they were using in TWoK, because we never saw a shielded ship hit. We do, however, know that the shields weren't the ships' only defences - part of yellow alert procedures involved activating "defence fields", which could be much more strongly argued to operate on a similar principle to the NX's polarised hull based on the bridge display of it activating.