SF Debris : It's only a paper moon

[SolkaTruesilver]

Link

I found the review to be fairly interesting. Not one of his best, obviously, but Chuck did a good job to link this (breather) episode to the general theme exposed by the serie.

What really marked me is his take on Vic: Vic doesn't want more than what he is and what he does, because Vic is HAPPY to do what he does and be what he is.

Why such programming wisdom is never imparted in any. other. freaking Sci-Fi setting, I don't understand. I never understood why the Hirogen didn't made their hologram HAPPY to be targets. I never understood why SkyNet or AM wasn't happy to serve the humans.

That is the first rule about AI developping: make it happy to serve you. Make it its sole source of joy: to be efficient and serviable. I doubt you'll have problem with it.

[Graham Kennedy]

The Culture novels show this; the vast majority of Culture Minds actively enjoy the company of Humans, and are more than happy to have them around and cater to their needs. Indeed it's stated at one point that a Mind can lose face amongst it's peers if it can't keep the Humans it hosts happy enough to stay living with it.

Truth be told, in the Federation there's only ever been one Hologram design that sought equal rights and such, Voyager's EMH. The standard approach programmers take is to set them program so that the holograms can't really comprehend anything beyond whatever role they are programmed to play; we've more than one seen programs confronted with 24th century stuff and they just keep on in their persona, maybe acting a little confused - as when the people in the Dixon Hill program thought Picard's Starfleet uniform was something Hill was wearing because he lost a bet.

Would be interesting to see what the typical roleplay type hologram would think, if it was self aware... "Dude, can I at least have some foreplay this time?"

[SolkaTruesilver]

When you talk about roleplay, you talk about RPGs, or you talk about... you know, role-play?

Your sentence's context will vary a lot, depending on your answer.

[Graham Kennedy]

When you talk about roleplay, you talk about RPGs, or you talk about... you know, role-play?

Your sentence's context will vary a lot, depending on your answer.

I'm talking about the kind of thing that would take up 99% of holodeck useage, if they existed in the real world...

[Sonic Glitch]

When you talk about roleplay, you talk about RPGs, or you talk about... you know, role-play?

Your sentence's context will vary a lot, depending on your answer.

I'm talking about the kind of thing that would take up 99% of holodeck useage, if they existed in the real world...

[McAvoy]

When you talk about roleplay, you talk about RPGs, or you talk about... you know, role-play?

Your sentence's context will vary a lot, depending on your answer.

I'm talking about the kind of thing that would take up 99% of holodeck useage, if they existed in the real world...

If holodecks existed the human race would be doomed.

[Mikey]

Indeed it's stated at one point that a Mind can lose face amongst it's peers if it can't keep the Humans it hosts happy enough to stay living with it.

In fact, IIRC it was stated at some point after Excession that the other Minds' usage of a nickname (Meatf*cker) was considered derogatory and insulting, based on Grey Area's proclivities.

I wonder, though, how much of that lack of "happiness in slavery" is intentional, in order to provide realism. To use the prior example, would hunting a willing target be as satisfying for a Hirogen?

[SolkaTruesilver]

If holodecks existed the human race would be doomed.

Not if we take steps to avoid it. I think, at that point, we will probably do the classic Succubus/Incubus plot.

(Succubus/Incubus were meant to be a single demon that can assume both male and female form. They'd seduce a man as a female, take his semence, and then turn into a male to secude a woman, to put the semence into her).

I wonder, though, how much of that lack of "happiness in slavery" is intentional, in order to provide realism. To use the prior example, would hunting a willing target be as satisfying for a Hirogen?

1 word for you: Tosk.

Happiness in being the prey do exist, at least in the Star Trek verse.

[Mikey]

(Succubus/Incubus were meant to be a single demon that can assume both male and female form. They'd seduce a man as a female, take his semence, and then turn into a male to secude a woman, to put the semence into her).

Or so Kramer and Sprenger would have us believe, but there's a huge chance that most if not all of the Malleus Maleficarum ignored actual demonological folklore in order to further the Dominican agenda.

1 word for you: Tosk.

Happiness in being the prey do exist, at least in the Star Trek verse.

How does this apply? We were discussing the apparent lack of programmed satisfaction with one's lot in holodeck characters. Tosk was not a holodeck character, nor was he "adjustable" in a real-time basis, as a holodeck creation would be. Programming for realism doesn't apply to actual living beings, even ones who are genetically engineered.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Or so Kramer and Sprenger would have us believe, but there's a huge chance that most if not all of the Malleus Maleficarum ignored actual demonological folklore in order to further the Dominican agenda.

Hey, I don't want to start up theologism argument. I was giving the example as to why we could still keep having a specie even if we have sex only with holograms. Just do semence transfer between programs.

1 word for you: Tosk.

Happiness in being the prey do exist, at least in the Star Trek verse.

How does this apply? We were discussing the apparent lack of programmed satisfaction with one's lot in holodeck characters. Tosk was not a holodeck character, nor was he "adjustable" in a real-time basis, as a holodeck creation would be. Programming for realism doesn't apply to actual living beings, even ones who are genetically engineered.

Make a Tosk hologram.

Make the hologram happy to be hunted down. Make it a matter of pride that he shouldn't be captured/taken down, but that it's inconcevable that he should fight back.

[Mikey]

And we're back to my original question: would the Hirogen accept that as satisfactory? I get the sneaking suspicion that they wouldn't.

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

Well, with the Doc, he far exceeded is runtime and function.

[Tyyr]

Make a Tosk hologram.

Make the hologram happy to be hunted down. Make it a matter of pride that he shouldn't be captured/taken down, but that it's inconcevable that he should fight back.

You're missing the point. It's not if the prey will be happy to be hunted, its if the hunter could enjoy hunting prey that doesn't mind being hunted. Especially with the bolded part.

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

Yeah... holograpihc prey that wouldn't fight back misses the point for the Hirogen.

[Mark]

But why make a Bajoran or Human to hunt? In the damned Starfleet database there are massively dangerous things to do battle with. Hell, even a Gorn is more a challange. Or, they could have created holograms with special skills. Can you imagine a Hirogin hunt going after someone like John Rambo? Hell, they could have just increased the difficulty setting as well.