Most depth?

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Most depth?

Postby Teaos » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:49 pm

I recently caught half an episode of DS9 on German tv (on a side note, HILARIOUS to watch it in German even if you dont understand it), it was the one where Martok takes over command of the empire and fleet once Worf lays the smark down on Gowron.

And I got in a very stilted cinversation with one of the Germans I lived with, he was saying (or I think he was) that the Klingons are the most well rounded species we see in Trek, with the most effort put into building them up as a culture.

I was arguing for the Cardassians as we have at least seen different sorts of Cardassians and seen them function as a society that is semi believable.

The three species we see the most of (that arent Federation members) are the Klingons, Romulans and Cardassians. I personally think that while we see alot of the Klingons, they are very 2 dimensional. The Romulans only slightly less so due to the Tasha Yar half Romulan clone plotline in TNG and the Cardassians the most.

All other species fall far behind as we dont see many other species show up over several series or seasons.
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Re: Most depth?

Postby Captain Seafort » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:07 pm

The Klingons aren't too bad. Ninety per cent of the time they're just either or waffling on about honour, but the TNG episodes, and a few of the DS9 ones, gave a decent insight into the Empire's political climate. Overall, however, I agree with you regarding the Cardassians, largely due to Dukat - he's one of the few Trek characters who comes across as a real person, rather than just a uniform.
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Re: Most depth?

Postby Teaos » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:16 pm

I see the Klingons as far to two dimensional. Even the politics and legel system we see is based on the warrior way. Honestly I think the Duras sisters have the most depth to the Klingons.

We saw quite a few Cardassians who had real depth and showed a range of personalities. Garak, Dumar, Tain, Gareks Nanny, Dukat and Dukats daughter.
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Re: Most depth?

Postby Captain Seafort » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:50 pm

Teaos wrote:I see the Klingons as far to two dimensional. Even the politics and legel system we see is based on the warrior way.


Superficially that's true, but scratch the surface and it's clear that it's just window dressing. Duras is just the best known example of a Klingon using political skulduggery to get his own way. Gowron rewrote history to hide the Federation's role in his winning the civil war, used Worf's concern for his family's position in the Empire to try to gain his assistance (once successfully once unsuccessfully), and threw Martok into unwinnable battles in an attempt to put the brakes on his rising popularity. D'Ghor almost brought down the House of Kozak with some nifty financial manipulations. It's clear that most of the politicians pay lip service at best to all the talk of glory and honour of combat.
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Re: Most depth?

Postby Teaos » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:08 pm

True, but its still following the same BS 2D culture.

Although you could same the same if not moreso for the Federation. They claim to not have money and be above such things.

But how many times do we see them gamble and trade in TNG and DS9?
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Re: Most depth?

Postby McAvoy » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:07 am

Well they have to paid somehow go pay for Quark's services. So I assume most of the member worlds or at least just Earth is a moneyless society. Outside that, Federation probably pays their officers and enlisted so they could use or buy stuff outside Federation control.

Maybe they have a latinum vault somewhere like Fort Knox.
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Re: Most depth?

Postby Jim » Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:07 pm

I like the idea of the Klingons, and they are technically my favorite on paper... but in depiction on screen they tended to usually be whiney back-stabbers.
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Re: Most depth?

Postby Teaos » Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:06 pm

I think on paper they are more bland than French Vanilla. Give me a more rounded Romulan or a Cardassian any day.
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Re: Most depth?

Postby Reliant121 » Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:38 pm

I think we see individual depths of Klingon behaviour (the Duras sisters, Worf, Martok etc) but it tends to display a depth of depravity (apart from Martok). The Duras Twins, Gowron, several other Klingon politicians display signs of...little other than trickery and deceit to get their way. Their government appears utterly corrupted yet presents a particularly unsubtle one dimensional facade. Cardassian society, though not often seen, is multi-strata; from the military vying with the Detapa council, the civilian outlook from the old woman Kira and Damar get shelter with...Even the differences between Dukat (a fascinating character on his own), Ziyal and Damar...They are somehow more fleshed out.

Unfortunately, I don't think the Romulans have had enough airtime to become as multi-faceted. Senator Vreenak, Senator Crenak, Sela, Commander Donatra...they each demonstrate a different agendas and attitudes from Romulans than the typical scheming assholes we've come to expect (Sela excluded perhaps) but these glimpses are fleeting.
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Re: Most depth?

Postby Deepcrush » Sat May 11, 2013 9:56 pm

The problem with viewing the Klingons is that they are a feudal system projected to viewers with little understanding of how a feudal military system works. There are a lot of complex parts to how such a system runs, Worf's extensive briefing with Riker on how to survive a single week aboard ship being a partial clue, but also that its built for a race that is naturally aggressive. Characters from Kor, Klang and Martok who are glory hounds. Battle is their callings and while they enjoy the efforts, its pretty clear they aren't immune to the emotional cost that comes with it. Worf is the outsider who raised on the Glory Stories is dropped into the situation to find out its not all candy and dreams. Gowron, Duras and for his short part K'mpec show us the political bend of the KE. The balance of alliances and social needs is by no means short its just not thrown in your face. The CU had a lot of overall development but that wasn't until DS9 where they were primary players. The KE, while always important series wise, wasn't a leading character in its own.

Overall, independent characters for the Cardassians show more depth but I think as a race I saw more with the Klingons. They seemed cookie cutter at first only because we were seeing them from Worf's eyes. Or just in short clips that didn't give the characters time to stand. Martok was no different in his first episode, it was over time that we saw the growth of his character.
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Re: Most depth?

Postby Tholian_Avenger » Fri May 17, 2013 4:31 pm

I've been watching DS9 again and have been really impressed with the depth given to the Cardassians.

I think the Klingons had more depth in TOS and ENT than in the other shows where they were made bland. Oh I also liked the House of Quark.
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Re: Most depth?

Postby Teaos » Fri May 17, 2013 6:34 pm

DS9 Cardassians were very good, but I found the TNG ones a bit bland.

I would have liked to of seen the peaceful/artistic side tot he population that was mentioned a few times, maybe a colony near the DMZ.
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Re: Most depth?

Postby McAvoy » Fri May 17, 2013 6:42 pm

Teaos wrote:DS9 Cardassians were very good, but I found the TNG ones a bit bland.

I would have liked to of seen the peaceful/artistic side tot he population that was mentioned a few times, maybe a colony near the DMZ.


The Cardassians in TNG were barely showed IMO. The one thing I liked was the consistency that was shown too even between TNG and DS9.
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Re: Most depth?

Postby Teaos » Fri May 17, 2013 9:11 pm

They were made almost at the same time.
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Re: Most depth?

Postby McAvoy » Sat May 18, 2013 3:31 pm

Teaos wrote:They were made almost at the same time.


Give or take. I am just saying that between two shows they were remarkably similar especially for a relatively new race in Trek.
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