Trade offs

[Meste17]

With the Treaty of alliance between the Federation and the Klingons would they exchange Starships for each other to use say the Federation would use a Klingon bird-of-prey for Special Forces work while the Klingons would get a Miranda Class ship?

[Graham Kennedy]

Likely not.

We saw in Unification that Picard had to borrow a Bird of Prey to go to Romulus; if the Federation had any, they would have used them.

[bladela]

Likely not.

We saw in Unification that Picard had to borrow a Bird of Prey to go to Romulus; if the Federation had any, they would have used them.

also the federation couldn't accept any ship with a cloaking device,unless you violate the treaty with the Romulans

[McAvoy]

With the Treaty of alliance between the Federation and the Klingons would they exchange Starships for each other to use say the Federation would use a Klingon bird-of-prey for Special Forces work while the Klingons would get a Miranda Class ship?

Why would the Klingons want a Miranda class ship. This is assuming any 'state secrets' are removed or not secret anymore.

The Federation would be the same way except they would get a cloaking device assuming the Romulans would accept it. But honestly, I doubt Starfleet doesn't in fact have the plans or data to make their own.

[Graham Kennedy]

We've seen before that cloaking tech isn't especially difficult to obtain - the con woman in Devil's Due had one. What's difficult to get is top-of-the-line super McAwesome cloaking tech like the Romulans/Remans have (the con lady's cloak was described as a second rate knock-off).

So if the Federation just wanted a cloak, there's little doubt they could make one pretty quick.

[McAvoy]

We've seen before that cloaking tech isn't especially difficult to obtain - the con woman in Devil's Due had one. What's difficult to get is top-of-the-line super McAwesome cloaking tech like the Romulans/Remans have (the con lady's cloak was described as a second rate knock-off).

So if the Federation just wanted a cloak, there's little doubt they could make one pretty quick.

Starfleet engineers are famous even to the Dominion to do great things from very little. I have little doubt that if they were allowed to use cloaking devices they could create their own in short time.

There was a book written awhile back that while the Federation wasn't allowed to use them, nothing was said to develop them. So when the time came with the need to have one, they replicated one from blueprints in the database.

[Captain Seafort]

Starfleet engineers are famous even to the Dominion to do great things from very little. I have little doubt that if they were allowed to use cloaking devices they could create their own in short time.

Never mind "could" - they did, and did a better job than the Romulans (issues with the thing brewing up notwithstanding).

[Graham Kennedy]

Starfleet engineers are famous even to the Dominion to do great things from very little. I have little doubt that if they were allowed to use cloaking devices they could create their own in short time.

Never mind "could" - they did, and did a better job than the Romulans (issues with the thing brewing up notwithstanding).

Well that is a rather big issue, to be fair. If your cloak tends to explode on a regular basis then it is by definition inferior to one that does not, no matter how many planets it lets you fly through.

Actually the fact that the Romulans had that as well and couldn't get that to work either suggests that Federation and Romulan cloaking tech is pretty evenly matched. I can well believe McAvoy's suggestion that the Federation is allowed to develop cloaking tech, just not allowed to use it. Or alternatively, the Federation is pretty good at stealing Romulan cloaking technology.

For that matter, the Klingons may well share their designs for cloaking tech with the Federation as part of the alliance. We've seen several times in TNG that Klingon cloaks are good enough to let their ships sit right next to Warbirds and even in orbit of Romulus for extended periods without any hint of detection. That's at least as good as Romulan tech generally is.

[bladela]

Well that is a rather big issue, to be fair. If your cloak tends to explode on a regular basis then it is by definition inferior to one that does not, no matter how many planets it lets you fly through.

The Pegasus's cloak worked pretty well on the Enterprise...

Actually the fact that the Romulans had that as well and couldn't get that to work either suggests that Federation and Romulan cloaking tech is pretty evenly matched. I can well believe McAvoy's suggestion that the Federation is allowed to develop cloaking tech, just not allowed to use it. Or alternatively, the Federation is pretty good at stealing Romulan cloaking technology.

What about cloaked probes? or the cloak suit seen in Insurrection? maybe the Federation is not allowed to use them on manned starship?

For that matter, the Klingons may well share their designs for cloaking tech with the Federation as part of the alliance. We've seen several times in TNG that Klingon cloaks are good enough to let their ships sit right next to Warbirds and even in orbit of Romulus for extended periods without any hint of detection. That's at least as good as Romulan tech generally is.

In this I wonder how close the alliance between the federation and the Klingons can be, we are talking about one of the key technologies of the Klingon defense forces.

How will the federation reciprocate? with quantum torpedoes?

[Graham Kennedy]

The Pegasus's cloak worked pretty well on the Enterprise...

For thirty seconds.

What about cloaked probes? or the cloak suit seen in Insurrection? maybe the Federation is not allowed to use them on manned starship?

Yeah, my guess would be that it forbids the use of cloaks in space, or for tactical purposes.

In this I wonder how close the alliance between the federation and the Klingons can be, we are talking about one of the key technologies of the Klingon defense forces.

It was pretty close, at least during TNG.

How will the federation reciprocate? with quantum torpedoes?

Could be any number of things.

[IanKennedy]

The Federation isn't allowed cloaking technology, except when it is. For example it had Duck Blinds in Insurrection and "Who watches the watchers", but they also had a "Holoship" that with a fully functional cloak. Obviously this adds to "The Pegasus" and virtually all of the late seasons of DS9.

[bladela]

The Federation isn't allowed cloaking technology, except when it is. For example it had Duck Blinds in Insurrection and "Who watches the watchers", but they also had a "Holoship" that with a fully functional cloak. Obviously this adds to "The Pegasus" and virtually all of the late seasons of DS9.

my speculation as always : is it plausible to think of a temporary suspension of the treaty during the war? I don't remember if insurrection was before or after the Romulans entered the war.

For thirty seconds.

true, it's also true that the only expert on that device was on the enterprise, and not on the pegasus during the incident

Yeah, my guess would be that it forbids the use of cloaks in space, or for tactical purposes.

still does not cover the probes, which can be used for espionage purposes

It was pretty close, at least during TNG.

The United States and the United Kingdom were very close during the war, which did not prevent the former from blocking the agreed transfer of nuclear technologies to the seconds immediately after the end of the war.

Could be any number of things.

true, it is reasonable, however, to hypothesize that the Klingons asked a military technology of equal value, or at least I would demand it

[Graham Kennedy]

true, it's also true that the only expert on that device was on the enterprise, and not on the pegasus during the incident

Who? Admiral Pressman? Riker? Both were on the Pegasus during the incident.

still does not cover the probes, which can be used for espionage purposes

Can they? When's that seen/mentioned?

The United States and the United Kingdom were very close during the war, which did not prevent the former from blocking the agreed transfer of nuclear technologies to the seconds immediately after the end of the war.

But they did do that transfer, after a few years.

it is reasonable, however, to hypothesize that the Klingons asked a military technology of equal value, or at least I would demand it

Perhaps. It's just as reasonable to assume the Federation ceded a planet to them, or gave them better warp drives, or traded a bunch of dilithium crystals, etc.


One other thing I'd say; it's not necessarily the case that everything that looks like a cloak is a cloak. The duck blinds for instance; I've never thought of them as cloaking devices as such, they're holograms of natural features that sit over a room/building. The suits may do something similar. The ship was referred to as a cloaked ship, but then the conspirators seemed likely to ignore laws that inconvenienced them anyway.

[bladela]

true, it's also true that the only expert on that device was on the enterprise, and not on the pegasus during the incident

Who? Admiral Pressman? Riker? Both were on the Pegasus during the incident.

If I remember correctly the explosion occurred when both were already on the run on a shuttle.

Can they? When's that seen/mentioned?

the TNG TM includes the description of a probe of this type, although in fact it does not explicitly mention that it is hidden (and in any case it is not canon ...)

But they did do that transfer, after a few years.

the 1958 US–UK Mutual Defence Agreement only started after the UK developed his own fusion device

Perhaps. It's just as reasonable to assume the Federation ceded a planet to them, or gave them better warp drives, or traded a bunch of dilithium crystals, etc.

One other thing I'd say; it's not necessarily the case that everything that looks like a cloak is a cloak. The duck blinds for instance; I've never thought of them as cloaking devices as such, they're holograms of natural features that sit over a room/building. The suits may do something similar. The ship was referred to as a cloaked ship, but then the conspirators seemed likely to ignore laws that inconvenienced them anyway.

The duck blinds are easier to explain with holographic technology (the difference with a real cloaking device should be discussed, I imagine that the first is easily recognizable by a tricorder, the second does not even appear registered ...).
About the suits i think you are right (in fact they are deactivated when Data destroyed the emitters).
Even the ship could simply have a visible light "cloak", which must not be an issue in the 24th century, but not classifiable as a true cloaking device because it can be easily detected by any spaceship.

[Graham Kennedy]

true, it's also true that the only expert on that device was on the enterprise, and not on the pegasus during the incident

Who? Admiral Pressman? Riker? Both were on the Pegasus during the incident.

If I remember correctly the explosion occurred when both were already on the run on a shuttle.

But they were only on the shuttle because the device was functioning in such a way as to scare the crew into mutiny. This to me is not a good sign.

the TNG TM includes the description of a probe of this type, although in fact it does not explicitly mention that it is hidden (and in any case it is not canon ...)

I suspect this idea comes from TMP. One of the fan questions about TMP is how the Epsilon IX station was able to get exterior visuals of the Klingon encounter with V'Ger. In the novels, this led to the idea that the Federation maintained a series of cloaked sensor platforms along the Klingon borders, and one happened to be in the vicinity of the encounter. Don't think it ever made it into canon, though.

the 1958 US–UK Mutual Defence Agreement only started after the UK developed his own fusion device

Whilst the Federation doesn't deploy cloaking devices, they do have the capability - they stole a Romulan cloak. So if anything it's a parallel situation; once the Federation had the ability, perhaps it led to the Klingons sharing their own ideas.

The duck blinds are easier to explain with holographic technology (the difference with a real cloaking device should be discussed, I imagine that the first is easily recognizable by a tricorder, the second does not even appear registered ...).
About the suits i think you are right (in fact they are deactivated when Data destroyed the emitters).
Even the ship could simply have a visible light "cloak", which must not be an issue in the 24th century, but not classifiable as a true cloaking device because it can be easily detected by any spaceship.

Agreed. It's likely that a tricorder would see a duck blind very easily, but cloaking devices are way more difficult. I'm up for the idea that cloaking is not necessarily a single technology at all; yes, we know from Spock that the basic principle is 'bending light' around the cloaked object. But there's probably all sorts of other things you have to do in the way of emission control, suppressing gravitational effects, etc, etc. You may have to have different elements of the system to counter each of a dozen different types of scanner and sensor. The Federation could be allowed some forms of 'cloaking' like simple holographic covers, but not a full on cloaking device that does it all.