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We know their history goes back thousands of years. In TOS they seem well established and in ENT they certainly have a solid power base (the less said about ENT though the better) but realistically how long do we think the Klingons could have been a space empire for? If its thousands of years they must of had a very slow rate of growth. Which we could believe... if it wasnt for the fact they seem to be now keeping pace with the Federation almost.

Teaos wrote:If its thousands of years they must of had a very slow rate of growth. Which we could believe... if it wasnt for the fact they seem to be now keeping pace with the Federation almost.

Why is that a problem? The Federation's pace of technological development is also extremely slow, and they've likewise got thousands of years of space travel behind them.

Between TOS and TNG is around 100 years. But the ships are much more powerful in terms of weapons, speed, sensors ect. Thats in 100 years of Federation improvement.

To get to the TOS level of tech only took them 150 years from first warp.

So in 250 years the Federation have gotten from scratch to where they are now.

The Klingons took... what? 500? 1000 year?

In TOS we see the Federation after a couple of centuries. In TOS Romulans and Klingons are of a similar technological level... but it took them a lot longer to get there.

Teaos wrote:Between TOS and TNG is around 100 years. But the ships are much more powerful in terms of weapons, speed, sensors ect. Thats in 100 years of Federation improvement.

To get to the TOS level of tech only took them 150 years from first warp.

So in 250 years the Federation have gotten from scratch to where they are now.

The Klingons took... what? 500? 1000 year?

In TOS we see the Federation after a couple of centuries. In TOS Romulans and Klingons are of a similar technological level... but it took them a lot longer to get there.

Not quite from scratch. Earth may have gone from scratch but the (major) species that make up the Federation each have a few centuries (millennia?) of space flight behind them.

Teaos wrote:But the ships are much more powerful in terms of weapons, speed, sensors ect.

Not really. Impulse drive is the same, per Relics. If anything warp drive is slower given some of the travel times in TOS. Weapons are probably a bit more powerful, but not so much so that Mirandas and Excelsiors aren't effective warships in DS9, and the descriptions of Enterprise's photonic torpedoes are within the ranges calculated for TNG-era PTs.

To get to the TOS level of tech only took them 150 years from first warp.

From Earth's first warp ship. The Federation isn't Earth - it's Earth, Vulcan, Tellar and Andoria, all of whom were old hands at space travel. The Vulcans had had interstellar travel of some form for several thousand years before the founding of the Federation, given the existence of P'Jem.

The Klingons either conquered their tech or made it themselves.

The Federation was a collaboration of hundreds of species.

100 years of Klingon work would be like 1000 of Federation work. I'm actually Impressed they and the Romulans kept up.

From Earth's first warp ship. The Federation isn't Earth - it's Earth, Vulcan, Tellar and Andoria, all of whom were old hands at space travel. The Vulcans had had interstellar travel of some form for several thousand years before the founding of the Federation, given the existence of P'Jem.

Humans went toe to toe with the Romulans after hardly 100 years in warp space.

Teaos wrote:Humans went toe to toe with the Romulans after hardly 100 years in warp space.

With the support of her allies, after a hundred years of Vulcan assistance (however grudging and limited).

How much support did we really get? Its called the Earth v Romulan war. We might have gotten a bit of material aid. But I cant see anyone giving us blueprint to their weapons or ships...

Teaos wrote:How much support did we really get? Its called the Earth v Romulan war. We might have gotten a bit of material aid. But I cant see anyone giving us blueprint to their weapons or ships...

We don't know. What we do know is that a formal alliance existed had between the four (and a few others if I recall the final Enterprise two-parter correctly) for several years before the war, and that the Federation was formed in the immediate aftermath, with those four as the core members. The very strong implication is that the Federation was a formalisation of a wartime alliance, just as the UN was. While it's likely that Earth bore the brunt of the fighting (otherwise why call it the Earth-Romulan War?) it's equally likely that Earth's allies played a significant role.

Still seems a odd discrepancy between humans rapid development and the more sedate pace of Empires that may have had space flight for thousands of years.

Teaos wrote:Still seems a odd discrepancy between humans rapid development and the more sedate pace of Empires that may have had space flight for thousands of years.

My point is that humans didn't demonstrate rapid development - once they'd demonstrated basic warp capability they were pulled up to local standard by their allies, just as the Japanese went from medieval to state of the art in a few decades in the late 19th century by buying stuff off everyone else, and just as in B5 Earth was rapidly brought up to standard by the Centauri.

So you dont think there was significant increase between TOS and TNG?

Or that its odd Humanity could go against the Romulans even with aid? When the Romulans have had a thousands of years to build a space empire?

Teaos wrote:So you dont think there was significant increase between TOS and TNG?

Technologically we know there wasn't - Geordi said so explicitly in Relics, and we've got the evidence of TOS speeds and Enterprise's torps to reinforce that.

Or that its odd Humanity could go against the Romulans even with aid? When the Romulans have had a thousands of years to build a space empire?

So have the Vulcans (obviously) - humanity's mentors, patrons and allies.

So have the Vulcans (obviously) - humanity's mentors, patrons and allies.

It would be called the Romulan/Vulcan war if they had helped us that much.