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Tiberius wrote:When did I say the warbird can't hold ANY troops?

My bad... I made the assumption that when you argued against the idea that the D'Deridex can hold troops, that meant that you thought that the D'Deridex couldn't hold troops. I know, hard to believe how I came to that conclusion.

Mikey wrote:

Tiberius wrote:When did I say the warbird can't hold ANY troops?

My bad... I made the assumption that when you argued against the idea that the D'Deridex can hold troops, that meant that you thought that the D'Deridex couldn't hold troops. I know, hard to believe how I came to that conclusion.

I was arguing against the idea that the D'Deridex could hold a large number of troops. As I've explained, my reasoning for this is from Unification. If the D'deridex could hold a large number of troops, why would they need to put some troops on the Vulcan ships where they could be more easily detected? I figure that they did that because the warbird by itself couldn't carry enough troops, and two warbirds wouldn't be able to sneak across the border without being detected.

Tiberius wrote:If the D'deridex could hold a large number of troops, why would they need to put some troops on the Vulcan ships where they could be more easily detected?

Because the Vulcan ships were the Trojan horse that made the entire op possible in the first place.

Captain Seafort wrote:

Tiberius wrote:If the D'deridex could hold a large number of troops, why would they need to put some troops on the Vulcan ships where they could be more easily detected?

Because the Vulcan ships were the Trojan horse that made the entire op possible in the first place.

A cloaked vessel would also serve well as a Trojan horse, yes? I would argue it would work even better. After all, the aim of a Trojan horse is to get your troops into enemy territory without being detected, and a cloaking device allows you to do just that.

I just find it hard to believe that the Romulan military had to decide where to put their troops in order to sneak them to Vulcan and decided that a few old Vulcan ships that were easily penetrated by scans were a better idea than hiding them on a ship which could become completely undetectable.

Actually, the idea of a Trojan horse is to move your troops in an easily-detected, obvious manner - just in a conveyance which appears to be something other than a troop conveyance. The Greeks didn't sneak into Troy, the were brought in by the Trojans.

Sounds exactly like what they were doing with Vulcan ships.

McAvoy wrote:Sounds exactly like what they were doing with Vulcan ships.

Hmmm....

Mikey wrote:Actually, the idea of a Trojan horse is to move your troops in an easily-detected, obvious manner - just in a conveyance which appears to be something other than a troop conveyance. The Greeks didn't sneak into Troy, the were brought in by the Trojans.

But not easily detected as being your troops. The aim is to disguise them as something. You can disguise them as a giant statue of a horse. You can also disguise them as empty space.

McAvoy wrote:Sounds exactly like what they were doing with Vulcan ships.

Except the Vulcans didn't bring the stolen ships into their space.

Tiberius wrote:But not easily detected as being your troops. The aim is to disguise them as something. You can disguise them as a giant statue of a horse. You can also disguise them as empty space.

No, a Trojan horse involves disguising your transport as something harmless. Hiding it completely is called camouflage. It's also something cloaks are a bit hit-and-miss at - Toreth reeled off a list of things that could see through them in Face of the Enemy.

Except the Vulcans didn't bring the stolen ships into their space.

A minor detail.

Who brings in the ships is a matter of crew, it doesn't change the strategy in use.

Captain Seafort wrote:

Tiberius wrote:But not easily detected as being your troops. The aim is to disguise them as something. You can disguise them as a giant statue of a horse. You can also disguise them as empty space.

No, a Trojan horse involves disguising your transport as something harmless. Hiding it completely is called camouflage.

.

Camoflage is not making something appear invisible. Camoflage is making it look like something it is not . Making a group of soldier look like just a horse statue. Making a bird look like a tree branch. Making a starship filled with troops look like empty space.

It's also something cloaks are a bit hit-and-miss at - Toreth reeled off a list of things that could see through them in Face of the Enemy.

It worked well enough to let the warbird that destroyed those vulcan ships remain completely undetected until the moment they decloaked.

Except the Vulcans didn't bring the stolen ships into their space.

A minor detail.

But in any case, the whole tactic used, both in the failed Romulan attempt and the original trojan horse, was "Get your guys into enemy territory by making them look like something the enemy doesn't need to worry about."

And a cloaked warbird can do that much more easily than a few easily-scanned Vulcan ships.

Not quite.

Tiberius wrote:the original trojan horse, was "Get your guys into enemy territory by making them look like something the enemy doesn't need to worry about wants to welcome into it's territory."

Fixed.

Mikey wrote:Not quite.

Tiberius wrote:the original trojan horse, was "Get your guys into enemy territory by making them look like something the enemy doesn't need to worry about wants to welcome into it's territory."

Fixed.

So the Trojans happened to be on the market for a giant wooden horse? Interesting hobbies they had back then...

Sonic Glitch wrote: So the Trojans happened to be on the market for a giant wooden horse? Interesting hobbies they had back then...

The Horse was a Greek offering to one of the Gods or Goddesses, a sign of Troy's victory. After the Greek's sailed away, the Trojans pulled it inside in triumph.

Tiberius wrote:Camoflage is not making something appear invisible. Camoflage is making it look like something it is not .

Camouflage involves making an object blend into its surrounding by eliminating or disguising those aspects of it that are obviously artificial. A cloak is that principle taken to its logical conclusion.

It worked well enough to let the warbird that destroyed those vulcan ships remain completely undetected until the moment they decloaked.

Being able to cruise around Federation space undetected is one thing - the equivalent of the U-boats that were able to cruise off the US cost undetected in early 1942. Being able to approach Vulcan and disembark troops undetected is the equivalent of using said U-boat to attack Manhattan Island in broad daylight.