Reason for D'Deridex size

The Next Generation

Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Mikey » Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:35 pm

Tiberius wrote:When did I say the warbird can't hold ANY troops?


My bad... I made the assumption that when you argued against the idea that the D'Deridex can hold troops, that meant that you thought that the D'Deridex couldn't hold troops. I know, hard to believe how I came to that conclusion.
"We've been over this. We don't shoot first and ask questions later."
"Of course! We never ask questions."
User avatar
Mikey
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
 
Posts: 33090
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:04 am
Location: down the shore, New Jersey, USA

Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Tiberius » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:49 pm

Mikey wrote:
Tiberius wrote:When did I say the warbird can't hold ANY troops?


My bad... I made the assumption that when you argued against the idea that the D'Deridex can hold troops, that meant that you thought that the D'Deridex couldn't hold troops. I know, hard to believe how I came to that conclusion.


I was arguing against the idea that the D'Deridex could hold a large number of troops. As I've explained, my reasoning for this is from Unification. If the D'deridex could hold a large number of troops, why would they need to put some troops on the Vulcan ships where they could be more easily detected? I figure that they did that because the warbird by itself couldn't carry enough troops, and two warbirds wouldn't be able to sneak across the border without being detected.
Go and read my fan fic "The Hansen Diaries"! And leave comments!
Tiberius
Lieutenant jg
Lieutenant jg
 
Posts: 395
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:45 am

Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Captain Seafort » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:56 pm

Tiberius wrote:If the D'deridex could hold a large number of troops, why would they need to put some troops on the Vulcan ships where they could be more easily detected?


Because the Vulcan ships were the Trojan horse that made the entire op possible in the first place.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.

Across the Universe - Chapter 2 now up
User avatar
Captain Seafort
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 14983
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Tiberius » Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:05 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:
Tiberius wrote:If the D'deridex could hold a large number of troops, why would they need to put some troops on the Vulcan ships where they could be more easily detected?


Because the Vulcan ships were the Trojan horse that made the entire op possible in the first place.


A cloaked vessel would also serve well as a Trojan horse, yes? I would argue it would work even better. After all, the aim of a Trojan horse is to get your troops into enemy territory without being detected, and a cloaking device allows you to do just that.

I just find it hard to believe that the Romulan military had to decide where to put their troops in order to sneak them to Vulcan and decided that a few old Vulcan ships that were easily penetrated by scans were a better idea than hiding them on a ship which could become completely undetectable.
Go and read my fan fic "The Hansen Diaries"! And leave comments!
Tiberius
Lieutenant jg
Lieutenant jg
 
Posts: 395
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:45 am

Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Mikey » Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:23 pm

Actually, the idea of a Trojan horse is to move your troops in an easily-detected, obvious manner - just in a conveyance which appears to be something other than a troop conveyance. The Greeks didn't sneak into Troy, the were brought in by the Trojans.
"We've been over this. We don't shoot first and ask questions later."
"Of course! We never ask questions."
User avatar
Mikey
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
 
Posts: 33090
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:04 am
Location: down the shore, New Jersey, USA

Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby McAvoy » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:58 pm

Sounds exactly like what they were doing with Vulcan ships.
"Don't underestimate the power of technobabble: the Federation can win anything with the sheer force of bullshit"
User avatar
McAvoy
Captain
Captain
 
Posts: 3918
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:39 am
Location: East Windsor, NJ

Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Mikey » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:04 pm

McAvoy wrote:Sounds exactly like what they were doing with Vulcan ships.


Hmmm....
"We've been over this. We don't shoot first and ask questions later."
"Of course! We never ask questions."
User avatar
Mikey
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
 
Posts: 33090
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:04 am
Location: down the shore, New Jersey, USA

Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Tiberius » Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:03 pm

Mikey wrote:Actually, the idea of a Trojan horse is to move your troops in an easily-detected, obvious manner - just in a conveyance which appears to be something other than a troop conveyance. The Greeks didn't sneak into Troy, the were brought in by the Trojans.


But not easily detected as being your troops. The aim is to disguise them as something. You can disguise them as a giant statue of a horse. You can also disguise them as empty space.

McAvoy wrote:Sounds exactly like what they were doing with Vulcan ships.


Except the Vulcans didn't bring the stolen ships into their space.
Go and read my fan fic "The Hansen Diaries"! And leave comments!
Tiberius
Lieutenant jg
Lieutenant jg
 
Posts: 395
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:45 am

Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Captain Seafort » Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:16 pm

Tiberius wrote:But not easily detected as being your troops. The aim is to disguise them as something. You can disguise them as a giant statue of a horse. You can also disguise them as empty space.


No, a Trojan horse involves disguising your transport as something harmless. Hiding it completely is called camouflage. It's also something cloaks are a bit hit-and-miss at - Toreth reeled off a list of things that could see through them in Face of the Enemy.

Except the Vulcans didn't bring the stolen ships into their space.


A minor detail.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.

Across the Universe - Chapter 2 now up
User avatar
Captain Seafort
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 14983
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Deepcrush » Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:23 am

Who brings in the ships is a matter of crew, it doesn't change the strategy in use.
Jinsei wa cho no yume, shi no tsubasa no bitodesu
User avatar
Deepcrush
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 18917
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:15 pm
Location: Arnold, Maryland, USA

Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Tiberius » Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:43 am

Captain Seafort wrote:
Tiberius wrote:But not easily detected as being your troops. The aim is to disguise them as something. You can disguise them as a giant statue of a horse. You can also disguise them as empty space.


No, a Trojan horse involves disguising your transport as something harmless. Hiding it completely is called camouflage.
.

Camoflage is not making something appear invisible. Camoflage is making it look like something it is not . Making a group of soldier look like just a horse statue. Making a bird look like a tree branch. Making a starship filled with troops look like empty space.

It's also something cloaks are a bit hit-and-miss at - Toreth reeled off a list of things that could see through them in Face of the Enemy.


It worked well enough to let the warbird that destroyed those vulcan ships remain completely undetected until the moment they decloaked.

Except the Vulcans didn't bring the stolen ships into their space.


A minor detail.


But in any case, the whole tactic used, both in the failed Romulan attempt and the original trojan horse, was "Get your guys into enemy territory by making them look like something the enemy doesn't need to worry about."

And a cloaked warbird can do that much more easily than a few easily-scanned Vulcan ships.
Go and read my fan fic "The Hansen Diaries"! And leave comments!
Tiberius
Lieutenant jg
Lieutenant jg
 
Posts: 395
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:45 am

Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Mikey » Fri Oct 26, 2012 12:11 pm

Not quite.

Tiberius wrote:the original trojan horse, was "Get your guys into enemy territory by making them look like something the enemy doesn't need to worry about wants to welcome into it's territory."


Fixed.
"We've been over this. We don't shoot first and ask questions later."
"Of course! We never ask questions."
User avatar
Mikey
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
 
Posts: 33090
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:04 am
Location: down the shore, New Jersey, USA

Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Sonic Glitch » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:20 pm

Mikey wrote:Not quite.

Tiberius wrote:the original trojan horse, was "Get your guys into enemy territory by making them look like something the enemy doesn't need to worry about wants to welcome into it's territory."


Fixed.

So the Trojans happened to be on the market for a giant wooden horse? Interesting hobbies they had back then...
"All this has happened before --"
"But it doesn't have to happen again. Not if we make up our minds to change. Take a different path. Right here, right now."
User avatar
Sonic Glitch
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral
 
Posts: 5821
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 1:11 am
Location: Any ol' place here on Earth or in space. You pick the century and I'll pick the spot

Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Tinadrin Chelnor » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:41 pm

Sonic Glitch wrote:So the Trojans happened to be on the market for a giant wooden horse? Interesting hobbies they had back then...


The Horse was a Greek offering to one of the Gods or Goddesses, a sign of Troy's victory. After the Greek's sailed away, the Trojans pulled it inside in triumph.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross... but it's not for the timid." - Q to Picard.
User avatar
Tinadrin Chelnor
Lieutenant
Lieutenant
 
Posts: 572
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:11 am
Location: South and East England, United Kingdom

Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Captain Seafort » Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:32 pm

Tiberius wrote:Camoflage is not making something appear invisible. Camoflage is making it look like something it is not .


Camouflage involves making an object blend into its surrounding by eliminating or disguising those aspects of it that are obviously artificial. A cloak is that principle taken to its logical conclusion.

It worked well enough to let the warbird that destroyed those vulcan ships remain completely undetected until the moment they decloaked.


Being able to cruise around Federation space undetected is one thing - the equivalent of the U-boats that were able to cruise off the US cost undetected in early 1942. Being able to approach Vulcan and disembark troops undetected is the equivalent of using said U-boat to attack Manhattan Island in broad daylight.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.

Across the Universe - Chapter 2 now up
User avatar
Captain Seafort
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 14983
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:44 pm
Location: Blighty

PreviousNext

Return to TNG

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron