Reason for D'Deridex size

The Next Generation

Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Tiberius » Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:03 am

Mikey wrote:
Tiberius wrote:However, three Vulcan ships AND a Romulan warbird will hold more troops than just three Vulcan ships by themselves.


As I just said. Being able to carry "more" doesn't mean "enough to complete the mission alone," nor does it mean any particular number.


Agreed. But the more troops the warbird can carry, the greater the proportion of the total troops it could carry out of the four vessels (3 Vulcan, 1 Romulan). The events of the episode show us that the troops on the Vulcan ships were needed to complete the mission. Without them, the mission was guaranteed to fail. However, they could not have been a significant number of ships - they were three ships, after all, and not particularly large ones. When the warbird decloaks, it is much larger in the frame than the Vulcan ships, and one of its warp nacelles goes behind one of the Vulcan ships, showing that they are quite small compared to the warbird.

As you said earlier, let's assume (generously) that the Vulcan ships could carry 600 troops each. Once they are lost, the Romulans must have lost a significant percentage of the total troops. If the warbird could carry a large number of troops, then a few small ships could not carry a significant percentage. They would only be carrying a small percentage of the number of troops.

But if the warbird had limited space for troops and could only carry a few, then the Vulcan ships could indeed carry a significant percentage of the total num,ber of troops, even if there were only a few hundred.

Tiberius wrote:My point is that since the warbird gave itself away, it guaranteed that its mission would not be completed. And the only reason that the commander of the warbird would do that is if he knew that he could not complete the mission without the troops on the Vulcan ships. And since the mission was landing a large number of troops on Vulcan, that tells me that a warbird is not capable of carrying that number of troops.


That's what I've just been saying! However, you have no basis to say that the warbird can't carry many troops, just because it couldn't carry enough on its own for this mission. What is the minimum number of troops required as determined by the Romulan chiefs-of-staff? What is the overage margin to that figure? What sort fof support staff is required? How about kit? You don't know the answers to any of these questions; therefore, the warbird could hold three brigades - as "lot" of troops, no doubt - but would still require the Vulcan ships to land their troops successfully as well in order to complete the mission. You keep using the fact that the warbird wouldn't/couldn't complete the mission without the Vulcan transports and I've not argued that; unfortunately, that fact says ZERO about the absolute number of troop berths available on the D'Deridex. "Not enough for that particular mission" is not an accurate measure of capacity.


My basis for saying so is the fact that if the warbird by itself could not carry enough troops, then the warbird plus three little ships is unlikely to carry enough.

And I doubt that the Romulans would need the Vulcan ships to get their troops onto Vulcan, not with the warbird's transporter. If the warbird was designed to carry large numbers of troops, then it would also have the ability to mobilize those troops rapidly.

Tiberius wrote:I'd hardly call a thousand troops a number large enough to justify the large size of the warbird. The Enterprise could carry that many if it needed to, and it's far smaller.


Don't be an idiot, I never suggested that 1,000 was the max. capacity. I merely picked an example number in order to illustrate to you that "not enough for this mission" =/= "zero," nor does it equal a statistically-insignificant number. If you're going to look at that example and act like that figure is actually part of my contention - despite the fact that I mentioned it as just an arbitrary number for illustrative purposes - then yes, I feel justified in continuing to use the term "idiot."


My point is that since the Romulans abandoned the attempt with the loss of the troops on the Vulcan ships, then the troops on the Vulcan ships were a statistically significant number. And those ships were quite small. So how could a few small ships carry a statistically significant number of the warbird could hold a great deal more?

Tiberius wrote:But it does show that the number of troops able to be carried by a warbird is not all that great.


It shows nothing of the sort. The ONLY thing it shows is that the troop complement of a D'Deridex is not enough to meet the troop requirement set out for the Vulcan mission. The Allies didn't have any one ship that could carry the entire invasion force for D-Day; would you then conclude that the Allies had NO ships of transporting a substantial number of troops? Of course you wouldn't, but that's exactly what you're doing in the case of the D'Deridex.


You are twisting my point.

As I;ve already said many times, if one warbird could not hold the required number of troops, then the addition of a few small ships is unlikely to provide the needed numbers. And your D-Day landing is a flawed analogy - they sent ships designed to carry lots of troops, with each ship carrying a similar amount. On the other hand, the Romulans sent one military vessel plus three other vessels which could only hold a handful.

it would be like the Allies planning the D-Day landing saying, "We only have one troop transport, we can't do it!" Not to worry, I can get you three lifeboats that can hold another twenty soldiers." Okay, now we'll have enough." Would you think that the troop transport could hold a thousand troops? Of course not, because that would mean that they thought that 1060 troops could do something that 1000 troops could not. But if the troop transport could only hold, say 80 troops, then the addition of the troops on the lifeboats nearly doubles the total number of troops - certainly enough to make the difference between success and failure.

Likeswise, if the warbird could carry 2000 troops and the Vulcan ships 100, then the number of troops on the Vulcan ships is unlikely to make a difference. However, the smaller the number of troops carried on the warbird, the more important those troops on the Vulcan ship become.

Tiberius wrote:let's take an over the top figure and say that the warbird could carry ten thousand troops. This, surely, is far greater than the number of troops that were being carried on the Vulcan ships.


Why? From where did you obtain the maximum complements of the Vulcan transports?


Have you watched the episode? Did you see how small they were?

Image

Please not that the far left Vulcan ship is in front of the warbird's nacelle, so the warbird must be behind it.

Tiberius wrote:So if the ruse was found out and the Vulcan ships had to be destroyed, wouldn't it be better to destroy them in a way that keeps the warbird hidden? Such as the idea of a self destruct? That way, the vast majority of troops would still get to Vulcan, and be able to complete the mission.


Nope - if, as we BOTH just postulated, the force necessary was in excess of either the D'Deridex or of the Vulcan ship group - independently one from the other - than continuing with the mission with insufficient numbers is stupid. We both agreed that the D'Deridex might not have enough capacity to complete the mission on its own. I'm just still waiting for an explanation of how exactly that logically leads to the conclusion that we can judge the absolute size of the D'Deridex' complement.


Of course the number of troops carried by all four ships is going to be greater by what can be carried by the warbird alone.

But as I've said before, the loss of the troops on the Vulcan ships meant that the warbird could not complete the mission. I doubt the Romulans would figure, "With the Vulcan ships lost, we've lost 5% of our troop numbers, we can't continue!" The Vulcan ships MUST have contained a significant number of the troops, or else the warbird would not have abandoned the mission with their loss.

Tiberius wrote:Since this did not happen, we must assume that it is not the case, and the warbird does not carry that huge amount of troops.


You can assume that the universe is governed by pink polka-dotted fairy unicorns, too, but there's as much basis for that as for your analysis.


I've explained my logic countless times now. There's no need for remarks like that.

Tiberius wrote:Let's now assume the exact opposite. The warbird can hold some troops, but not many. Say a thousand. Now, the troops on the Vulcan ships are needed - the mission can't continue without them. When they are found out, the troops on the Vulcan ships are destroyed to prevent them from being interrogated. Now, why they chose to have the warbird decloak to destroy them isntead of using a self destruct order is confusing, but ultimately irrelevant. No matter how they are destroyed, there's no point in the warbird continuing to Vulcan, because it doesn't have enough troops to complete the mission. And when the warbird decloaked, it guaranteed that it would never make it to Vulcan. After all, Starfleet would have easily put two and two together and figured that the Romulan ship was going to travel with the Vulcan ships to Vulcan, and they'd figure that they'd better get a bunch of starships to Vulcan right away. In short, by decloaking, the warbird guaranteed there'd be a fleet of ships waiting at Vulcan. By decloaking, the warbird guaranteed it wouldn't be able to complete its mission, no matter how many troops it had.


:bangwall: This is getting frustrating. Here's the deal in a neat, tidy nutshell: whether or not the warbird could have completed the mission without the Vulcan transports is a matter of relative capacity - specifically, did the warbird carry enough troops relative to the mission requirements to complete the mission without the Vulcan transports. Since the warbird, for all intents and purpose, abandoned the mission in order to "poison pill" the transports, we can safely say "No, it didn't." I think we both agree on that point. Here's the problem - there is no logical way to take that and deduce an absolute capacity for any of the ships involved. Hell, we can't even truly assume an accurate relative capacity of the warbird vs. the Vulcan transport. It seems to make sense to say that warbird < 1.5 time one of the transports, but that's still circumstantial and isn't actually supported by the evidence. The ONLY thing we can safely say, based on the facts presented, is that the warbird ALONE didn't carry enough troops to complete the mission.


True, we can never know for sure the capacity of any of the ships, but we can make a rough guess. And given the obviously small size of the Vulcan transports, it is unlikely that they would be able to hold many troops. And given the small size of the troops in comparison to the warbird, it is likely that the total number of troops on the warbird is going to far outnumber the troops on the three Vulcan ships together.

Tiberius wrote:So this tells me that the forces that were aboard the Vulcan ships were a significant portion of the total number of troops.


No doubt.


Glad we at least agree on that.

Tiberius wrote:Let's say the vulcan ships carried 50% of the troops.


Why would we say that? If you want to make up a number to fit your argument, it hardly seems like a valid argument. Where was it shown - or even suggested - that the Vulcan ships carried 50% of the mission complement? It could have been 30%, it could have been 80%, the resulting behavior on the part of the warbird would have been the same.


No it wouldn't.

The smaller the percentage of troops carried on the Vulcan ship, the greater the percentage of the troops on the warbird.

Let's use your example. 30% of the troops are lost, but they still have 70% of the troops on the warbird. A noticable loss, yes, but not one that would guarantee failure.

But your other example - 80% of the troops are lost. Now failure is guaranteed.

Tiberius wrote:You suggested 600 troops a piece


Like fucking hell I did. Here we go again with the willful idiocy. If you are either a) incapable or b) unwilling to distinguish an arbitrary example for illustrative purposes from an actual point of contention, then you have no place debating anything with anyone.


Didn't you say:
Mikey wrote:For just one example off the top of my head: if the Vulcan transports can hold 600 troops apiece, and the D'Deridex can hold 1000, which holds more - three Vulcan ships or one D'Deridex?


Yes, it was an example, but don't tell me you didn't say it. Besides, I needed to use a number to illustrate my point, and the one you used was as good as any.

Tiberius wrote:So assuming a crew of 300 or so to actually run the warbird, that gives a total population of the warbird of 2100. The Enterprise D could hold that many people. It easily carried a population of more than a thousand, and if they had cramped quarters they'd be able to fit 2100 easily. I could easily see the Romulans doing this with their troops, so that number of troops on the warbird wouldn't require any greater habitable volume than a Galaxy class ship has. So a troop-transport idea wouldn't require the much greater volume that we see the warbird actually has.

hence my conclusion that the large size of the warbird isn't to carry large numbers of troops.


#1 - From what source did you get the base crew numbers for a D'Deridex?


You're right. It was an assumption on my part.

So let's look at a source written by Herman Zimmerman, Rick Sternbach and Doug Drexler, the DS9 Technical manual. It gives a number of 1500 officers, crew and troops.

Now instead of assuming almost 2000 troops, we are down to maybe 1000 or a little more. Not helping your position.

#2 - If the D'Deridex could, by your estimation, carry many more troops than a GCS, then it's just absolutely dishonest debating to claim that it can't carry troops because you made up numbers to keep it down to GCS levels. In other words, your argument runs like this:
"Hey - I completely fabricated a capacity for the D'Deridex of only 2100 people. Since it should be able to carry more than the fake upper limit which I just pulled out of my ass, it must not carry anyone at all!"


Then by all means, feel free to suggest whatever numbers you like.

In fact, please do this. I believe that I can illustrate that whatever crew numbers you come up with for the Vulcan ships and the warbird will either support my point or contradict the episode.
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Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby McAvoy » Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:57 am

Rule of thumb: 30% of loss is a failure even if the battle was won.

However, that screencap of the three Vulcan ships and the lone warbird, doesn't really show how large the Vulcans ships truly are. Are they large? Are they medium? Are they small? Is each ship packed with soldiers? Is the warbird packed as well? How much can each ship hold?

Can a single fucking warbird with three transports even penetrate and successfully take over a core member of the UFP in the middle of the UFP?

A bunch of questions with no answers and only assumptions.
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Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Captain Seafort » Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:03 am

Tiberius wrote:As you said earlier, let's assume (generously) that the Vulcan ships could carry 600 troops each.


That's not generous at all - it's below the lower limit of the ships' capacity. La Forge (presumably based on intelligence or sensor readings) commented that there were over two thousand troops on the Vulcan ships, so there must have been at least 667 troops per ship, and significantly fewer than 1000.

My point is that since the Romulans abandoned the attempt with the loss of the troops on the Vulcan ships, then the troops on the Vulcan ships were a statistically significant number. And those ships were quite small. So how could a few small ships carry a statistically significant number of the warbird could hold a great deal more?


Given the situation, whether the Vulcan ships carried 50, 80, 30, 100 or one per cent of the total is irrelevant - the ruse had been discovered, and the Federation was alerted to the presence of a Romulan invasion force. Sela was clear that surprise was essential to the success of the operation, so once that had been lost the number of troops carried on the Vulcan ships vs that carried on cloaked Romulan supports was irrelevant.
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Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Tiberius » Sun Oct 21, 2012 7:35 am

McAvoy wrote:However, that screencap of the three Vulcan ships and the lone warbird, doesn't really show how large the Vulcans ships truly are. Are they large? Are they medium? Are they small? Is each ship packed with soldiers? Is the warbird packed as well? How much can each ship hold?


Actually it does. If you have a look at the warp nacelle of the warbird, it is actually partically hidden by the Vulcan ship. That means that the Vulcan ship is between the warbird and the Enterprise. Assume that the Vulcan ship was as close as possible to the warbird without colliding, and this would give us the largest possible size for the Vulcan ship. And it's still quite small.

Can a single fucking warbird with three transports even penetrate and successfully take over a core member of the UFP in the middle of the UFP?


The Romulans thought so.

Captain Seafort wrote:
Tiberius wrote:As you said earlier, let's assume (generously) that the Vulcan ships could carry 600 troops each.


That's not generous at all - it's below the lower limit of the ships' capacity. La Forge (presumably based on intelligence or sensor readings) commented that there were over two thousand troops on the Vulcan ships, so there must have been at least 667 troops per ship, and significantly fewer than 1000.


Okay, let's Take geordi at his word. We'll assume 700 troops on each of the Vulcan ships, giving 2100 troops in total on the Vulcan ships.

Now, McAvoy said that a 30% loss is a failure, even if the battle is won. Since the Romulans gave up the mission after the Vulcan ships were destroyed and the troops were lost, we can assume that this constituted a loss of 30% or more.

Let us also assume that the Romulans put as many troops as they could on the warbird.

So if the Vulcan ships carried 30% of their forces, then the remaining 70% on the warbird would number at 4900 troops.

Now, in yesterday's Enterprise, Tasha tells Castillo that the Galaxy Class starship can carry up to 6000 troops:

TASHA (re: the new Enterprise)
She was the first Galaxy Class
warship built by the Federation...
forty-two decks... capable of
transporting over six thousand
troops...

So, it would seem that the large size of the warbird is not required to carry troops. If it was, then the Romulans are incredibly inefficient, given that Yesterday's Enterprise shows us a smaller ship that can carry more troops.

The only way around this is to assume one of the following:

1. The Romulan warbird's large size is indeed so it can carry a larger number of troops, but in this instance it was not carrying as many troops as it could - in which case we must ask why not?
2. The Romulan warbird was carrying more troops than I've assumed - but in that case why abandon the mission when the losses were not so great as to call for it?

My point is that since the Romulans abandoned the attempt with the loss of the troops on the Vulcan ships, then the troops on the Vulcan ships were a statistically significant number. And those ships were quite small. So how could a few small ships carry a statistically significant number of the warbird could hold a great deal more?


Given the situation, whether the Vulcan ships carried 50, 80, 30, 100 or one per cent of the total is irrelevant - the ruse had been discovered, and the Federation was alerted to the presence of a Romulan invasion force. Sela was clear that surprise was essential to the success of the operation, so once that had been lost the number of troops carried on the Vulcan ships vs that carried on cloaked Romulan supports was irrelevant.


And as I said before, there were other options...

1. Destroy the Vulcan ships with the self destruct, operated either by the officers commanding the ships or by automatic computers programed to self destruct if a certain set of conditions occurred.
2. Staff the Vulcan ships with an actual diplomatic team who genuinely believed that they were headed to Vulcan for peaceful negotiations. That way any Federation interrogation would point to the message from Spock as being an elaborate fake, perhaps by someone who wished to disrupt the apparent peace process.

In any case, the Romulans could have avoided the loss of surprise. At the very least, they had a cloaked Romulan warship in Federation space and no one knew it was there. They could have easily hidden somewhere while the heat died down, and a month or two later, when everyone figured that there was no invasion plan after all, they could have decloaked and completed the mission.
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Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Captain Seafort » Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:05 am

Tiberius wrote:
Can a single fucking warbird with three transports even penetrate and successfully take over a core member of the UFP in the middle of the UFP?


The Romulans thought so.


No, the Romulans thought that three Vulcan transports were a good enough Trojan horse to bypass Vulcan's defences. There's no indication whatsoever what the warbird's intended role was.

Okay, let's Take geordi at his word. We'll assume 700 troops on each of the Vulcan ships, giving 2100 troops in total on the Vulcan ships.

Now, McAvoy said that a 30% loss is a failure, even if the battle is won. Since the Romulans gave up the mission after the Vulcan ships were destroyed and the troops were lost, we can assume that this constituted a loss of 30% or more.


No, we can't - the Federation was alerted, so the battle was already lost and the destruction of those ships was part of the clean-up. You're putting too much weight on the numbers of troops involved, and where they're located, as a cause of the Romulan's defeat. They'd already been defeated, and were destroyed when the E-D prevented them retreating back across the Neutral Zone. You're also putting too much weight on the numbers of troops involved as the main decider for whether success is possible. It was - surprise was the key factor in the operation, and once that was lost they'd already been defeated, regardless of how many troops they had available, or what ships they were being carried in.

1. Destroy the Vulcan ships with the self destruct, operated either by the officers commanding the ships or by automatic computers programed to self destruct if a certain set of conditions occurred.


The latter would be utterly idiotic, given that being intercepted by a Federation starship was an entirely predictable event during the operation, and they'd probably planned to bluff their way through in that eventuality. The former is too unreliable - a moment of hesitation, or a CO (or one of his subordinates) who decides that a Federation prison is preferable to death, could allow the capture of one of the ships.

2. Staff the Vulcan ships with an actual diplomatic team who genuinely believed that they were headed to Vulcan for peaceful negotiations. That way any Federation interrogation would point to the message from Spock as being an elaborate fake, perhaps by someone who wished to disrupt the apparent peace process.


We don't know what the precise Romulan plan was, beyond the fact that the troops carried in the Vulcan ships were crucial to it. It may have been that Vulcan's standing passive defences would have detected a cloaked warbird coming within transporter range of the planet, it could be that there's an anti-transporter shield over certain areas of the planet that the Romulans needed to secure, it could be any number of things. What we do know is that the Trojan Horse method was apparently necessary to secure success.

In any case, the Romulans could have avoided the loss of surprise. At the very least, they had a cloaked Romulan warship in Federation space and no one knew it was there. They could have easily hidden somewhere while the heat died down, and a month or two later, when everyone figured that there was no invasion plan after all, they could have decloaked and completed the mission.


Surprise had already been lost - even if Spock's signal wasn't enough to give the game away, his, Picard's and Data's escape certainly was, especially since, in true Bond villain style, Sela had given them virtually a full briefing.
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Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Tiberius » Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:42 am

Captain Seafort wrote:
Tiberius wrote:
Can a single fucking warbird with three transports even penetrate and successfully take over a core member of the UFP in the middle of the UFP?


The Romulans thought so.


No, the Romulans thought that three Vulcan transports were a good enough Trojan horse to bypass Vulcan's defences. There's no indication whatsoever what the warbird's intended role was.


Wait, what?

You disagree with me, and then say the exact same thing I was saying?

Or do you think that the Warbird just popped up out of nowhere? Obviously the warbird was sent with the Vulcan ships. How else could it have gotten there?

Okay, let's Take geordi at his word. We'll assume 700 troops on each of the Vulcan ships, giving 2100 troops in total on the Vulcan ships.

Now, McAvoy said that a 30% loss is a failure, even if the battle is won. Since the Romulans gave up the mission after the Vulcan ships were destroyed and the troops were lost, we can assume that this constituted a loss of 30% or more.


No, we can't - the Federation was alerted, so the battle was already lost and the destruction of those ships was part of the clean-up. You're putting too much weight on the numbers of troops involved, and where they're located, as a cause of the Romulan's defeat. They'd already been defeated, and were destroyed when the E-D prevented them retreating back across the Neutral Zone. You're also putting too much weight on the numbers of troops involved as the main decider for whether success is possible. It was - surprise was the key factor in the operation, and once that was lost they'd already been defeated, regardless of how many troops they had available, or what ships they were being carried in.


I've already dealt with that. I notice you disagree, and I will respond to your disagreements at the appropriate point.

1. Destroy the Vulcan ships with the self destruct, operated either by the officers commanding the ships or by automatic computers programed to self destruct if a certain set of conditions occurred.


The latter would be utterly idiotic, given that being intercepted by a Federation starship was an entirely predictable event during the operation, and they'd probably planned to bluff their way through in that eventuality. The former is too unreliable - a moment of hesitation, or a CO (or one of his subordinates) who decides that a Federation prison is preferable to death, could allow the capture of one of the ships.


Ah, but being intercepted by a Federation ship isn't the only set of circumstances they could have set to trigger the autodestruct. Trigger it if any non-Romulans come on board. Trigger it if any non-Romulan transporter beams take someone off the ship. Both easily done, and both allow for an attempt to bluff past any Federation ships.

And I'm sure that the Romulans would be certain of finding officers loyal enough to prefer death to prison.

2. Staff the Vulcan ships with an actual diplomatic team who genuinely believed that they were headed to Vulcan for peaceful negotiations. That way any Federation interrogation would point to the message from Spock as being an elaborate fake, perhaps by someone who wished to disrupt the apparent peace process.


We don't know what the precise Romulan plan was, beyond the fact that the troops carried in the Vulcan ships were crucial to it. It may have been that Vulcan's standing passive defences would have detected a cloaked warbird coming within transporter range of the planet, it could be that there's an anti-transporter shield over certain areas of the planet that the Romulans needed to secure, it could be any number of things. What we do know is that the Trojan Horse method was apparently necessary to secure success.


If Vulcan's defences could detect a cloaked ship, why isn't the Federation using that same technology to detect any Romulan warbirds attempting to cross the border?

If there was an anti-transporter shield, any group of diplomats who genuinely believed that they were on a peace mission would have a way of getting the Vulcans to lower it, yes?

And I won't question that the Romulans wanted a trojan horse method in order for their plan to work. However, a cloaked warbird makes a trojan horse just as effective - if not MORE effective - as a group of Vulcan ships.

In any case, the Romulans could have avoided the loss of surprise. At the very least, they had a cloaked Romulan warship in Federation space and no one knew it was there. They could have easily hidden somewhere while the heat died down, and a month or two later, when everyone figured that there was no invasion plan after all, they could have decloaked and completed the mission.


Surprise had already been lost - even if Spock's signal wasn't enough to give the game away, his, Picard's and Data's escape certainly was, especially since, in true Bond villain style, Sela had given them virtually a full briefing.


The Romulans could easily blame the message from Spock as an attempt by someone to disrupt the peace process. I doubt Spock had time to do anything more than record a video and upload it to whatever the Romulans use.

And the Romulan warbird had no way of knowing that Picard, Spock and Data had escaped.
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Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Captain Seafort » Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:33 am

Tiberius wrote:You disagree with me, and then say the exact same thing I was saying?

Or do you think that the Warbird just popped up out of nowhere? Obviously the warbird was sent with the Vulcan ships. How else could it have gotten there?


By crossing the NZ specifically to take out the transports before the E-D could capture them.

Trigger it if any non-Romulans come on board.


And if it's a Vulcan boarding party? Sensors can't tell them apart -they're the same species.

Trigger it if any non-Romulan transporter beams take someone off the ship.


By which time it's too late.

And I'm sure that the Romulans would be certain of finding officers loyal enough to prefer death to prison.


No, they're not - they may be highly likely, but they're not certain, nor can they be certain that one of said officer's subordinates might decide that imprisonment is preferable to death and prevent him from triggering the self-destruct.

If Vulcan's defences could detect a cloaked ship, why isn't the Federation using that same technology to detect any Romulan warbirds attempting to cross the border?


Because a single planetary system is a sight smaller, and therefore easier to cover, than several thousand square light years of NZ border.

If there was an anti-transporter shield, any group of diplomats who genuinely believed that they were on a peace mission would have a way of getting the Vulcans to lower it, yes?


Possibly. Or they could open windows in it that required the warbird to be dangerously close to the transports to take advantage, or they could have limited the windows to site-to-site transport, or they could have required them to land. In any event, the Romulans clearly believed that the only way they could establish troops on the surface was to use the Vulcan ships to carry the invasion force.

And I won't question that the Romulans wanted a trojan horse method in order for their plan to work. However, a cloaked warbird makes a trojan horse just as effective - if not MORE effective - as a group of Vulcan ships.


Odysseus would have had problems getting the original through the gates if he'd had a few thousand hoplites surrounding his horse trying to hide.

The Romulans could easily blame the message from Spock as an attempt by someone to disrupt the peace process. I doubt Spock had time to do anything more than record a video and upload it to whatever the Romulans use.


They'd still have a lot of explaining to do, given that the knowledge that Spock was on Romulus was exceptionally tightly held within both governments - the UFP because they were worried he'd defected, the Romulans because they were trying to conceal the fact that they were onto him.

And the Romulan warbird had no way of knowing that Picard, Spock and Data had escaped.


Other than the fact that Spock's message was somewhat different from the one they were expecting, and possibly a subspace message from Romulus, depending on how much time elapsed between their escape and the destruction of the ships.
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Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Deepcrush » Sun Oct 21, 2012 12:57 pm

I don't plan on getting to involved in this debate because the level of stupid I've read from some of the posts... just eh.

But important things to remember in combat. Surprise is a force multiplier, it is easier to engage ten thousand troops that you see coming then one thousand that you don't. Take and Hold, a classic attrition based tactic to force your enemy to decide how much he is willing to sacrifice to take back what you are holding. We've seen that the UFP is rather weak willed at this time so its a rather valid tactic. Finally, on allowing yourself to be captured. Intel isn't just on a single mission. Sometimes you gain small points of intel as to unit numbers, ship numbers, deployment histories or even just finding people who would happily convert to your cause and turn on their former governments for a better life. All these things are a part of a planned assault and recovery mission.

The RSE wanted Vulcan but it appears that simple force of arms wasn't enough. So what they had to do was to put the UFP in a position to decide what it was willing to sacrifice to secure a single planet. RSE was willing to trade lives to force the UFP to trade a planet. Seeing that it worked for the CU, it is again a valid tactic.
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Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Captain Seafort » Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:02 pm

Deepcrush wrote:I don't plan on getting to involved in this debate because the level of stupid I've read from some of the posts... just eh.


Mellowing in your old age, eh Deep? :P
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Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Deepcrush » Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:08 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:
Deepcrush wrote:I don't plan on getting to involved in this debate because the level of stupid I've read from some of the posts... just eh.


Mellowing in your old age, eh Deep? :P


Just other things to spend time on. Its seems a trend on here that no matter what people will bs or plain out lie on a topic. If its not one of the mods or admins, it will be one of the members seeking to copy it. Point out the facts and then just leave it behind seems the only logical choice when dealing with lesser people.
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Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Mikey » Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:36 pm

*sigh*

Comparing the maximum emergency troop capacity of a GCS with the normal troop berth of a D'Deridex is hardly useful; nor is comparing a ratio of size to capacity of a dedicated transport (like the Vulcan ships) with that of a D'Deridex - which (if it has troop berths) houses troops as an adjunct capability. The fact remains that there are all sorts of reasons which have been presented by myself and others as to why the warbird may have destroyed the Vulcan ships upon discovery, all of which do NOT depend on the dismissal of the idea of troop berths on the D'Deridex-class.
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Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Tiberius » Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:47 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:
Tiberius wrote:You disagree with me, and then say the exact same thing I was saying?

Or do you think that the Warbird just popped up out of nowhere? Obviously the warbird was sent with the Vulcan ships. How else could it have gotten there?


By crossing the NZ specifically to take out the transports before the E-D could capture them.


And how exactly did it cross the gravitic sensor net along the Romulan Border?

Trigger it if any non-Romulans come on board.


And if it's a Vulcan boarding party? Sensors can't tell them apart -they're the same species.


How many times were we told that there are some differences. Forehead ridges, for example?

Trigger it if any non-Romulan transporter beams take someone off the ship.


By which time it's too late.


No it isn't. We've seen at least one instance of where an exploding runabout has caused trouble to the transporter even when the people had already been beamed out, in "Our Man Bashir." And you could also implant remat detonators in your troops too activated whenever they go through a non-romulan transporter.

And I'm sure that the Romulans would be certain of finding officers loyal enough to prefer death to prison.


No, they're not - they may be highly likely, but they're not certain, nor can they be certain that one of said officer's subordinates might decide that imprisonment is preferable to death and prevent him from triggering the self-destruct.


Now you're just quibbling.

If Vulcan's defences could detect a cloaked ship, why isn't the Federation using that same technology to detect any Romulan warbirds attempting to cross the border?


Because a single planetary system is a sight smaller, and therefore easier to cover, than several thousand square light years of NZ border.


That's a good point, but not entirely convincing. A planetary system's boundary is still very large.

If there was an anti-transporter shield, any group of diplomats who genuinely believed that they were on a peace mission would have a way of getting the Vulcans to lower it, yes?


Possibly. Or they could open windows in it that required the warbird to be dangerously close to the transports to take advantage, or they could have limited the windows to site-to-site transport, or they could have required them to land. In any event, the Romulans clearly believed that the only way they could establish troops on the surface was to use the Vulcan ships to carry the invasion force.


There was nothing in the episode that showed that the entirety of the invasion force was on the Vulcan ships.

And I won't question that the Romulans wanted a trojan horse method in order for their plan to work. However, a cloaked warbird makes a trojan horse just as effective - if not MORE effective - as a group of Vulcan ships.


Odysseus would have had problems getting the original through the gates if he'd had a few thousand hoplites surrounding his horse trying to hide.


That is a flawed analogy. We are talking about the Romulans trying to get their invasion force to Vulcan without it being detected as an invasion force. A cloaked Romulan warbird is able to do that, correct?

The Romulans could easily blame the message from Spock as an attempt by someone to disrupt the peace process. I doubt Spock had time to do anything more than record a video and upload it to whatever the Romulans use.


They'd still have a lot of explaining to do, given that the knowledge that Spock was on Romulus was exceptionally tightly held within both governments - the UFP because they were worried he'd defected, the Romulans because they were trying to conceal the fact that they were onto him.


Then by that logic wouldn't his original message - the one Sela wanted him to deliver - have caused the same reaction? The Feds should have thought that Spock had indeed defected and he was trying to cover a Romulan invasion force by saying it was a diplomatic mission. Would you believe someone if you were worried they had defected to the enemy and were now saying that a small fleet of ships coming from enemy territory was really just friendly?

And the Romulan warbird had no way of knowing that Picard, Spock and Data had escaped.


Other than the fact that Spock's message was somewhat different from the one they were expecting, and possibly a subspace message from Romulus, depending on how much time elapsed between their escape and the destruction of the ships.


Hardly enough to abandon the mission on though.
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Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Tiberius » Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:49 pm

Mikey wrote:*sigh*

Comparing the maximum emergency troop capacity of a GCS with the normal troop berth of a D'Deridex is hardly useful; nor is comparing a ratio of size to capacity of a dedicated transport (like the Vulcan ships) with that of a D'Deridex - which (if it has troop berths) houses troops as an adjunct capability. The fact remains that there are all sorts of reasons which have been presented by myself and others as to why the warbird may have destroyed the Vulcan ships upon discovery, all of which do NOT depend on the dismissal of the idea of troop berths on the D'Deridex-class.


I don't get this. It seems like you are just going out of your way to disagree with me.

All I've done is present the reasons why I think that the Warbird's large size isn't because it's designed to carry large numbers of troops. And instead of my original post on this matter being responded to in a civilised manner, I've had people jumping down my throat, as though my ideas are somehow sacrilegious.

Come on guys, loosen up.
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Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Mikey » Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:07 am

One could easily say the same about this last very comment. "Disagrees with Tiberius" =/= "needs to loosen up." I can't speak for anyone else, but the fact that I disagree with you - even vehemently, at times - doesn't mean I think less of you, or that you shouldn't have your opinion. The entire raison d'etre of a debate or discussion such as this is for me (in the general sense) to tell you if I disagree with you, and why I do.

Be that as it may, I've had a fun weekend... and as with all the right kinds of fun, it's exhausted me. I will keep my latest commentary to this one point:

Tiberius wrote:Now you're just quibbling.


Be careful. There is a huge, and quite important, distinction between "quibbling" and "pointing out a subtle but important difference." Just because the difference which Seafort indicated is one of fine detail doesn't mean it's a trifle; in this case, it's quite an important difference no matter how minute.
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Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Tiberius » Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:29 am

Mikey wrote:One could easily say the same about this last very comment. "Disagrees with Tiberius" =/= "needs to loosen up." I can't speak for anyone else, but the fact that I disagree with you - even vehemently, at times - doesn't mean I think less of you, or that you shouldn't have your opinion. The entire raison d'etre of a debate or discussion such as this is for me (in the general sense) to tell you if I disagree with you, and why I do.

Be that as it may, I've had a fun weekend... and as with all the right kinds of fun, it's exhausted me. I will keep my latest commentary to this one point:

Tiberius wrote:Now you're just quibbling.


Be careful. There is a huge, and quite important, distinction between "quibbling" and "pointing out a subtle but important difference." Just because the difference which Seafort indicated is one of fine detail doesn't mean it's a trifle; in this case, it's quite an important difference no matter how minute.


I am not saying, "My logic is flawless, therefore I am right and anyone who disagrees with me is wrong."

I am saying, "My reasoning is plausible and fits well with the established evidence, therefore I might be correct."

The evidence we have from certain episodes suggests that the warbird does not have a large crew compliment in comparison to its size when compared with the GCS, so I tend to think the idea that the warbird is big so it can carry lots of troops isn't likely.

But when I come in here and present my reasoning, I'm attacked, sworn at and it seems that people are going out of their way to show that I MUST be wrong no matter what reasoning I present, and I don't think it's called for.
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