Mikey wrote:Tiberius wrote:However, three Vulcan ships AND a Romulan warbird will hold more troops than just three Vulcan ships by themselves.
As I just said. Being able to carry "more" doesn't mean "enough to complete the mission alone," nor does it mean any particular number.
Agreed. But the more troops the warbird can carry, the greater the proportion of the total troops it could carry out of the four vessels (3 Vulcan, 1 Romulan). The events of the episode show us that the troops on the Vulcan ships were needed to complete the mission. Without them, the mission was guaranteed to fail. However, they could not have been a significant number of ships - they were three ships, after all, and not particularly large ones. When the warbird decloaks, it is much larger in the frame than the Vulcan ships, and one of its warp nacelles goes behind one of the Vulcan ships, showing that they are quite small compared to the warbird.
As you said earlier, let's assume (generously) that the Vulcan ships could carry 600 troops each. Once they are lost, the Romulans must have lost a significant percentage of the total troops. If the warbird could carry a large number of troops, then a few small ships could not carry a significant percentage. They would only be carrying a small percentage of the number of troops.
But if the warbird had limited space for troops and could only carry a few, then the Vulcan ships could indeed carry a significant percentage of the total num,ber of troops, even if there were only a few hundred.
Tiberius wrote:My point is that since the warbird gave itself away, it guaranteed that its mission would not be completed. And the only reason that the commander of the warbird would do that is if he knew that he could not complete the mission without the troops on the Vulcan ships. And since the mission was landing a large number of troops on Vulcan, that tells me that a warbird is not capable of carrying that number of troops.
That's what I've just been saying! However, you have no basis to say that the warbird can't carry many troops, just because it couldn't carry enough on its own for this mission. What is the minimum number of troops required as determined by the Romulan chiefs-of-staff? What is the overage margin to that figure? What sort fof support staff is required? How about kit? You don't know the answers to any of these questions; therefore, the warbird could hold three brigades - as "lot" of troops, no doubt - but would still require the Vulcan ships to land their troops successfully as well in order to complete the mission. You keep using the fact that the warbird wouldn't/couldn't complete the mission without the Vulcan transports and I've not argued that; unfortunately, that fact says ZERO about the absolute number of troop berths available on the D'Deridex. "Not enough for that particular mission" is not an accurate measure of capacity.
My basis for saying so is the fact that if the warbird by itself could not carry enough troops, then the warbird plus three little ships is unlikely to carry enough.
And I doubt that the Romulans would need the Vulcan ships to get their troops onto Vulcan, not with the warbird's transporter. If the warbird was designed to carry large numbers of troops, then it would also have the ability to mobilize those troops rapidly.
Tiberius wrote:I'd hardly call a thousand troops a number large enough to justify the large size of the warbird. The Enterprise could carry that many if it needed to, and it's far smaller.
Don't be an idiot, I never suggested that 1,000 was the max. capacity. I merely picked an example number in order to illustrate to you that "not enough for this mission" =/= "zero," nor does it equal a statistically-insignificant number. If you're going to look at that example and act like that figure is actually part of my contention - despite the fact that I mentioned it as just an arbitrary number for illustrative purposes - then yes, I feel justified in continuing to use the term "idiot."
My point is that since the Romulans abandoned the attempt with the loss of the troops on the Vulcan ships, then the troops on the Vulcan ships were a statistically significant number. And those ships were quite small. So how could a few small ships carry a statistically significant number of the warbird could hold a great deal more?
Tiberius wrote:But it does show that the number of troops able to be carried by a warbird is not all that great.
It shows nothing of the sort. The ONLY thing it shows is that the troop complement of a D'Deridex is not enough to meet the troop requirement set out for the Vulcan mission. The Allies didn't have any one ship that could carry the entire invasion force for D-Day; would you then conclude that the Allies had NO ships of transporting a substantial number of troops? Of course you wouldn't, but that's exactly what you're doing in the case of the D'Deridex.
You are twisting my point.
As I;ve already said many times, if one warbird could not hold the required number of troops, then the addition of a few small ships is unlikely to provide the needed numbers. And your D-Day landing is a flawed analogy - they sent ships designed to carry lots of troops, with each ship carrying a similar amount. On the other hand, the Romulans sent one military vessel plus three other vessels which could only hold a handful.
it would be like the Allies planning the D-Day landing saying, "We only have one troop transport, we can't do it!" Not to worry, I can get you three lifeboats that can hold another twenty soldiers." Okay, now we'll have enough." Would you think that the troop transport could hold a thousand troops? Of course not, because that would mean that they thought that 1060 troops could do something that 1000 troops could not. But if the troop transport could only hold, say 80 troops, then the addition of the troops on the lifeboats nearly doubles the total number of troops - certainly enough to make the difference between success and failure.
Likeswise, if the warbird could carry 2000 troops and the Vulcan ships 100, then the number of troops on the Vulcan ships is unlikely to make a difference. However, the smaller the number of troops carried on the warbird, the more important those troops on the Vulcan ship become.
Tiberius wrote:let's take an over the top figure and say that the warbird could carry ten thousand troops. This, surely, is far greater than the number of troops that were being carried on the Vulcan ships.
Why? From where did you obtain the maximum complements of the Vulcan transports?
Have you watched the episode? Did you see how small they were?
Please not that the far left Vulcan ship is in front of the warbird's nacelle, so the warbird must be behind it.
Tiberius wrote:So if the ruse was found out and the Vulcan ships had to be destroyed, wouldn't it be better to destroy them in a way that keeps the warbird hidden? Such as the idea of a self destruct? That way, the vast majority of troops would still get to Vulcan, and be able to complete the mission.
Nope - if, as we BOTH just postulated, the force necessary was in excess of either the D'Deridex or of the Vulcan ship group - independently one from the other - than continuing with the mission with insufficient numbers is stupid. We both agreed that the D'Deridex might not have enough capacity to complete the mission on its own. I'm just still waiting for an explanation of how exactly that logically leads to the conclusion that we can judge the absolute size of the D'Deridex' complement.
Of course the number of troops carried by all four ships is going to be greater by what can be carried by the warbird alone.
But as I've said before, the loss of the troops on the Vulcan ships meant that the warbird could not complete the mission. I doubt the Romulans would figure, "With the Vulcan ships lost, we've lost 5% of our troop numbers, we can't continue!" The Vulcan ships MUST have contained a significant number of the troops, or else the warbird would not have abandoned the mission with their loss.
Tiberius wrote:Since this did not happen, we must assume that it is not the case, and the warbird does not carry that huge amount of troops.
You can assume that the universe is governed by pink polka-dotted fairy unicorns, too, but there's as much basis for that as for your analysis.
I've explained my logic countless times now. There's no need for remarks like that.
Tiberius wrote:Let's now assume the exact opposite. The warbird can hold some troops, but not many. Say a thousand. Now, the troops on the Vulcan ships are needed - the mission can't continue without them. When they are found out, the troops on the Vulcan ships are destroyed to prevent them from being interrogated. Now, why they chose to have the warbird decloak to destroy them isntead of using a self destruct order is confusing, but ultimately irrelevant. No matter how they are destroyed, there's no point in the warbird continuing to Vulcan, because it doesn't have enough troops to complete the mission. And when the warbird decloaked, it guaranteed that it would never make it to Vulcan. After all, Starfleet would have easily put two and two together and figured that the Romulan ship was going to travel with the Vulcan ships to Vulcan, and they'd figure that they'd better get a bunch of starships to Vulcan right away. In short, by decloaking, the warbird guaranteed there'd be a fleet of ships waiting at Vulcan. By decloaking, the warbird guaranteed it wouldn't be able to complete its mission, no matter how many troops it had.
This is getting frustrating. Here's the deal in a neat, tidy nutshell: whether or not the warbird could have completed the mission without the Vulcan transports is a matter of relative capacity - specifically, did the warbird carry enough troops relative to the mission requirements to complete the mission without the Vulcan transports. Since the warbird, for all intents and purpose, abandoned the mission in order to "poison pill" the transports, we can safely say "No, it didn't." I think we both agree on that point. Here's the problem - there is no logical way to take that and deduce an absolute capacity for any of the ships involved. Hell, we can't even truly assume an accurate relative capacity of the warbird vs. the Vulcan transport. It seems to make sense to say that warbird < 1.5 time one of the transports, but that's still circumstantial and isn't actually supported by the evidence. The ONLY thing we can safely say, based on the facts presented, is that the warbird ALONE didn't carry enough troops to complete the mission.
True, we can never know for sure the capacity of any of the ships, but we can make a rough guess. And given the obviously small size of the Vulcan transports, it is unlikely that they would be able to hold many troops. And given the small size of the troops in comparison to the warbird, it is likely that the total number of troops on the warbird is going to far outnumber the troops on the three Vulcan ships together.
Tiberius wrote:So this tells me that the forces that were aboard the Vulcan ships were a significant portion of the total number of troops.
Glad we at least agree on that.
Tiberius wrote:Let's say the vulcan ships carried 50% of the troops.
Why would we say that? If you want to make up a number to fit your argument, it hardly seems like a valid argument. Where was it shown - or even suggested - that the Vulcan ships carried 50% of the mission complement? It could have been 30%, it could have been 80%, the resulting behavior on the part of the warbird would have been the same.
No it wouldn't.
The smaller the percentage of troops carried on the Vulcan ship, the greater the percentage of the troops on the warbird.
Let's use your example. 30% of the troops are lost, but they still have 70% of the troops on the warbird. A noticable loss, yes, but not one that would guarantee failure.
But your other example - 80% of the troops are lost. Now failure is guaranteed.
Tiberius wrote:You suggested 600 troops a piece
Like fucking hell I did. Here we go again with the willful idiocy. If you are either a) incapable or b) unwilling to distinguish an arbitrary example for illustrative purposes from an actual point of contention, then you have no place debating anything with anyone.
Didn't you say:
Mikey wrote:For just one example off the top of my head: if the Vulcan transports can hold 600 troops apiece, and the D'Deridex can hold 1000, which holds more - three Vulcan ships or one D'Deridex?
Yes, it was an example, but don't tell me you didn't say it. Besides, I needed to use a number to illustrate my point, and the one you used was as good as any.
Tiberius wrote:So assuming a crew of 300 or so to actually run the warbird, that gives a total population of the warbird of 2100. The Enterprise D could hold that many people. It easily carried a population of more than a thousand, and if they had cramped quarters they'd be able to fit 2100 easily. I could easily see the Romulans doing this with their troops, so that number of troops on the warbird wouldn't require any greater habitable volume than a Galaxy class ship has. So a troop-transport idea wouldn't require the much greater volume that we see the warbird actually has.
hence my conclusion that the large size of the warbird isn't to carry large numbers of troops.
#1 - From what source did you get the base crew numbers for a D'Deridex?
You're right. It was an assumption on my part.
So let's look at a source written by Herman Zimmerman, Rick Sternbach and Doug Drexler, the DS9 Technical manual. It gives a number of 1500 officers, crew and troops.
Now instead of assuming almost 2000 troops, we are down to maybe 1000 or a little more. Not helping your position.
#2 - If the D'Deridex could, by your estimation, carry many more troops than a GCS, then it's just absolutely dishonest debating to claim that it can't carry troops because you made up numbers to keep it down to GCS levels. In other words, your argument runs like this:
"Hey - I completely fabricated a capacity for the D'Deridex of only 2100 people. Since it should be able to carry more than the fake upper limit which I just pulled out of my ass, it must not carry anyone at all!"
Then by all means, feel free to suggest whatever numbers you like.
In fact, please do this. I believe that I can illustrate that whatever crew numbers you come up with for the Vulcan ships and the warbird will either support my point or contradict the episode.