Reason for D'Deridex size

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Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Teaos » Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:13 pm

Hmmm, maybe the space and shape help the field?
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Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Mikey » Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:27 pm

Teaos wrote:Hmmm, maybe the space and shape help the field?


Ah, the nebulous field of "warp dynamics." That's a tough one to apply here, though - we can assume that all concurrent or subsequent Romulan ships use a similar manner of warp-power generation, yet the warships from Nemesis didn't have open space in the middle.
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Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Tsukiyumi » Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:48 am

Could've been an experimental design like the Excelsior.
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Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Sonic Glitch » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:21 am

Well there were at least 2 of them so probably not experimental.

Also, there was an open section in the neck, demonstrated here
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Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Tsukiyumi » Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:28 pm

Sonic Glitch wrote:Well there were at least 2 of them so probably not experimental.

Also, there was an open section in the neck, demonstrated here


There were more than two Excelsiors also. :wink:

Sometimes experimental works.
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Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Mikey » Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:42 pm

I think the deployment we've seen of D'Deridex-class ships pretty convincingly indicates that they're in service, not experimental.
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Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Sonic Glitch » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:04 pm

Tsukiyumi wrote:
Sonic Glitch wrote:Well there were at least 2 of them so probably not experimental.

Also, there was an open section in the neck, demonstrated here


There were more than two Excelsiors also. :wink:

Sometimes experimental works.

I know -- by that point it's no longer experimental to me though, that's why I said it :)

One ship is an experiment, 2 or more is likely a successful design no longer experimental to me.

Mikey wrote:I think the deployment we've seen of D'Deridex-class ships pretty convincingly indicates that they're in service, not experimental.

I think referring to the Valdore.
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Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Tiberius » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:50 pm

Griffin wrote:I'm tired and can't remember the episode that well, but didn't they use Vulcan ships so that they could sneak past defences or something?


Yes they did, but then when they were found out a Romulan warbird decloaked and destroyed them. So I have to wonder why they decided to use the Vulcan ships at all if a warbird able to hold thousands of troops can cross the border under cloak. The only explanation is that the Vulcan ships were able to hold more troops than the warbird, and they couldn't send more warbirds because they would create a larger subspace disruption (or some technobabble like that) which would have meant they'd be detected.
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Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Mikey » Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:30 pm

Sonic Glitch wrote:I think referring to the Valdore.


OK. In that case, their deployment still argues against them being prototypes.

Tiberius wrote:Yes they did, but then when they were found out a Romulan warbird decloaked and destroyed them. So I have to wonder why they decided to use the Vulcan ships at all if a warbird able to hold thousands of troops can cross the border under cloak. The only explanation is that the Vulcan ships were able to hold more troops than the warbird, and they couldn't send more warbirds because they would create a larger subspace disruption (or some technobabble like that) which would have meant they'd be detected.


I don't believe that a Romulan warbird/D'Deridex could cross the border under cloak. The UFP had all sorts of bases and listening posts, as evidenced in canon from TOS and on. I don't recall offhand, perhaps the warbird in "Unification" which destroyed the Vulcan "Trojan horse" ships had made it past the border; but if it had, it was only because any local sensor attention was focused on the Vulcan ships. What fits with both canon and the Romulan archetype is that the Vulcan ships were used as a ruse, pure and simple. Such use was even intimated in the ep, if not stated explicitly.
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Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Tiberius » Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:58 am

Mikey wrote:
Tiberius wrote:Yes they did, but then when they were found out a Romulan warbird decloaked and destroyed them. So I have to wonder why they decided to use the Vulcan ships at all if a warbird able to hold thousands of troops can cross the border under cloak. The only explanation is that the Vulcan ships were able to hold more troops than the warbird, and they couldn't send more warbirds because they would create a larger subspace disruption (or some technobabble like that) which would have meant they'd be detected.


I don't believe that a Romulan warbird/D'Deridex could cross the border under cloak. The UFP had all sorts of bases and listening posts, as evidenced in canon from TOS and on. I don't recall offhand, perhaps the warbird in "Unification" which destroyed the Vulcan "Trojan horse" ships had made it past the border; but if it had, it was only because any local sensor attention was focused on the Vulcan ships. What fits with both canon and the Romulan archetype is that the Vulcan ships were used as a ruse, pure and simple. Such use was even intimated in the ep, if not stated explicitly.


But if that's the case, why did the Romulan warbird break cloak? Assuming that it could hold thousands of troops, why not just let the Vulcan ships and their contingent of troops get caught and be interrogated and then carry on towards Vulcan in the still-cloaked Warbird, filled to the brim with troops? The objective for the Romulans, after all, was to get the troops to Vulcan, not to get the Vulcan ships to Vulcan. And the Vulcan ships would have performed their job of distracting the Federation sensors.
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Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Mikey » Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:47 am

Did you even read that after you wrote it? The D'Deridex decloaked because it can't fire while cloaked. In turn, it fired on and destroyed the Vulcan ships - NOT because they were Vulcan ships - but because, as YOU even just said, the Romulan occupants would have been otherwise captured and interrogated. I can't believe I'm explaining this.
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Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Tiberius » Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:54 am

Mikey wrote:Did you even read that after you wrote it? The D'Deridex decloaked because it can't fire while cloaked. In turn, it fired on and destroyed the Vulcan ships - NOT because they were Vulcan ships - but because, as YOU even just said, the Romulan occupants would have been otherwise captured and interrogated. I can't believe I'm explaining this.


Yes, I read it.

My point is this...

If the Romulan Warbird can carry thousands of troops, then why bother with the Trojan horse at all? You may say that it was required so everyone would miss the warbird coming across the border, but it's easy to get around that. You can have false life signs coming from the trojan horse fleet. Or if that won't work, put actual diplomats on there who know nothing about the real mission. That way if Starfleet gets curious, they can interrogate them and the Romulans they speak to will support the peaceful reunification story. Having your people interrogated is only bad if they know something that you want to keep secret.

But there's nothing that says that you can't have troops on your ship if you need another ship to hide your crossing of the border.

But the only reason for what we actually saw in the episode was that they COULDN'T fit all those troops on the warbird. So I conclude that the large size of the Warbird is not to allow for large numbers of troops.

After all, if the Romulans could fit all those troops in the warbird, but didn't and relied on the trojan horse to carry them, I can just imagine the following conversation...

"So you killed all the troops you smuggled across the border?"
"Yes."
"But you showed that you can get a warbird across the border undetected if you use another ship to cover its crossing. Why didn't you have your troops on the warbird?"
"Oh shit, I didn't think of that."
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Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Mikey » Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:22 pm

Tiberius wrote:If the Romulan Warbird can carry thousands of troops, then why bother with the Trojan horse at all? You may say that it was required so everyone would miss the warbird coming across the border, but it's easy to get around that. You can have false life signs coming from the trojan horse fleet. Or if that won't work, put actual diplomats on there who know nothing about the real mission. That way if Starfleet gets curious, they can interrogate them and the Romulans they speak to will support the peaceful reunification story. Having your people interrogated is only bad if they know something that you want to keep secret.


All of which is to say that even if all the troops were carried aboard the warbird, there would still be reasons to bring the Vulcan ships. EOS, even by your argument presented here. OK, now is it a stretch to say that even if the Vulcan ships had a more limited troop capacity than the D'Deridex, three Vulcan ships might not? No, it isn't. For just one example off the top of my head: if the Vulcan transports can hold 600 troops apiece, and the D'Deridex can hold 1000, which holds more - three Vulcan ships or one D'Deridex? Further, there are other factors which you are ignoring. Was the trip destined to be one-way, at least for the "ruse" ships? It seems likely, so which would the Romulans rather sacrifice - three captured ships of a type they don't use, or one of their home-built (and presumably resource-intensive) warbirds? Again, how do we know that there weren't holds full of Romulan troops in the warbird? Let's use the hypothetical figures I just gave above: if 2800 troops was considered sufficient for the mission, 1000 might not be; therefore, the loss of the transports - even with a D'Deridex full of troops surviving - would not be sent on to continue the mission. Of course we don't know that for sure, but we can't just assume things which are not based on evidence and call them reasons.

Tiberius wrote:But the only reason for what we actually saw in the episode was that they COULDN'T fit all those troops on the warbird. So I conclude that the large size of the Warbird is not to allow for large numbers of troops.

After all, if the Romulans could fit all those troops in the warbird, but didn't and relied on the trojan horse to carry them, I can just imagine the following conversation...

"So you killed all the troops you smuggled across the border?"
"Yes."
"But you showed that you can get a warbird across the border undetected if you use another ship to cover its crossing. Why didn't you have your troops on the warbird?"
"Oh shit, I didn't think of that."


Again, you're assuming that a) you know the number of units which the Romulans deemed necessary to complete the mission, and b) you know that this number would fit in a D'Deridex. The idea that enough troops for this particular mission wouldn't fit in a D'Deridex in absolutely no way whatsoever controverts the idea that a number of troops wouldn't fit in a D'Deridex. Do American IFV's each carry enough troops to stage an infantry operation? No, of course not. So we use more than one IFV at a time... and further, it certainly doesn't mean that our IFV's don't carry any troops at all, does it?
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Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Tiberius » Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:04 am

Mikey wrote:
Tiberius wrote:If the Romulan Warbird can carry thousands of troops, then why bother with the Trojan horse at all? You may say that it was required so everyone would miss the warbird coming across the border, but it's easy to get around that. You can have false life signs coming from the trojan horse fleet. Or if that won't work, put actual diplomats on there who know nothing about the real mission. That way if Starfleet gets curious, they can interrogate them and the Romulans they speak to will support the peaceful reunification story. Having your people interrogated is only bad if they know something that you want to keep secret.


All of which is to say that even if all the troops were carried aboard the warbird, there would still be reasons to bring the Vulcan ships. EOS, even by your argument presented here. OK, now is it a stretch to say that even if the Vulcan ships had a more limited troop capacity than the D'Deridex, three Vulcan ships might not? No, it isn't. For just one example off the top of my head: if the Vulcan transports can hold 600 troops apiece, and the D'Deridex can hold 1000, which holds more - three Vulcan ships or one D'Deridex?


And I won't argue with you there.

However, three Vulcan ships AND a Romulan warbird will hold more troops than just three Vulcan ships by themselves.

Further, there are other factors which you are ignoring. Was the trip destined to be one-way, at least for the "ruse" ships? It seems likely, so which would the Romulans rather sacrifice - three captured ships of a type they don't use, or one of their home-built (and presumably resource-intensive) warbirds?


But given that the Romulan warbird was completely undetected until it decloaked, the sacrifice of that warbird was far from certain. And if the Romulans would prefer to kill their troops, then they could have equipped those Vulcan ships with self destruct devices. Surely there would be Romulan officers dedicated enough to destroy themselves rather than be captured. Or failing that, the computers could have been programed to self destruct the ships if a certain set of conditions occured - conditions like being found out.

My point is that since the warbird gave itself away, it guaranteed that its mission would not be completed. And the only reason that the commander of the warbird would do that is if he knew that he could not complete the mission without the troops on the Vulcan ships. And since the mission was landing a large number of troops on Vulcan, that tells me that a warbird is not capable of carrying that number of troops.

Again, how do we know that there weren't holds full of Romulan troops in the warbird? Let's use the hypothetical figures I just gave above: if 2800 troops was considered sufficient for the mission, 1000 might not be; therefore, the loss of the transports - even with a D'Deridex full of troops surviving - would not be sent on to continue the mission. Of course we don't know that for sure, but we can't just assume things which are not based on evidence and call them reasons.


I'd hardly call a thousand troops a number large enough to justify the large size of the warbird. The Enterprise could carry that many if it needed to, and it's far smaller.

Tiberius wrote:But the only reason for what we actually saw in the episode was that they COULDN'T fit all those troops on the warbird. So I conclude that the large size of the Warbird is not to allow for large numbers of troops.

After all, if the Romulans could fit all those troops in the warbird, but didn't and relied on the trojan horse to carry them, I can just imagine the following conversation...

"So you killed all the troops you smuggled across the border?"
"Yes."
"But you showed that you can get a warbird across the border undetected if you use another ship to cover its crossing. Why didn't you have your troops on the warbird?"
"Oh shit, I didn't think of that."


Again, you're assuming that a) you know the number of units which the Romulans deemed necessary to complete the mission, and b) you know that this number would fit in a D'Deridex. The idea that enough troops for this particular mission wouldn't fit in a D'Deridex in absolutely no way whatsoever controverts the idea that a number of troops wouldn't fit in a D'Deridex. Do American IFV's each carry enough troops to stage an infantry operation? No, of course not. So we use more than one IFV at a time... and further, it certainly doesn't mean that our IFV's don't carry any troops at all, does it?


But it does show that the number of troops able to be carried by a warbird is not all that great. For example, let's take an over the top figure and say that the warbird could carry ten thousand troops. This, surely, is far greater than the number of troops that were being carried on the Vulcan ships. So if the ruse was found out and the Vulcan ships had to be destroyed, wouldn't it be better to destroy them in a way that keeps the warbird hidden? Such as the idea of a self destruct? That way, the vast majority of troops would still get to Vulcan, and be able to complete the mission.

Since this did not happen, we must assume that it is not the case, and the warbird does not carry that huge amount of troops.

Let's now assume the exact opposite. The warbird can hold some troops, but not many. Say a thousand. Now, the troops on the Vulcan ships are needed - the mission can't continue without them. When they are found out, the troops on the Vulcan ships are destroyed to prevent them from being interrogated. Now, why they chose to have the warbird decloak to destroy them isntead of using a self destruct order is confusing, but ultimately irrelevant. No matter how they are destroyed, there's no point in the warbird continuing to Vulcan, because it doesn't have enough troops to complete the mission. And when the warbird decloaked, it guaranteed that it would never make it to Vulcan. After all, Starfleet would have easily put two and two together and figured that the Romulan ship was going to travel with the Vulcan ships to Vulcan, and they'd figure that they'd better get a bunch of starships to Vulcan right away. In short, by decloaking, the warbird guaranteed there'd be a fleet of ships waiting at Vulcan. By decloaking, the warbird guaranteed it wouldn't be able to complete its mission, no matter how many troops it had.

So this tells me that the forces that were aboard the Vulcan ships were a significant portion of the total number of troops. Let's say the vulcan ships carried 50% of the troops. You suggested 600 troops a piece, which gives a total of 1800 troops on the three ships. If that's half, then there are also 1800 troops on the warbird.

So assuming a crew of 300 or so to actually run the warbird, that gives a total population of the warbird of 2100. The Enterprise D could hold that many people. It easily carried a population of more than a thousand, and if they had cramped quarters they'd be able to fit 2100 easily. I could easily see the Romulans doing this with their troops, so that number of troops on the warbird wouldn't require any greater habitable volume than a Galaxy class ship has. So a troop-transport idea wouldn't require the much greater volume that we see the warbird actually has.

hence my conclusion that the large size of the warbird isn't to carry large numbers of troops.
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Re: Reason for D'Deridex size

Postby Mikey » Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:51 pm

Tiberius wrote:However, three Vulcan ships AND a Romulan warbird will hold more troops than just three Vulcan ships by themselves.


As I just said. Being able to carry "more" doesn't mean "enough to complete the mission alone," nor does it mean any particular number.

Tiberius wrote:My point is that since the warbird gave itself away, it guaranteed that its mission would not be completed. And the only reason that the commander of the warbird would do that is if he knew that he could not complete the mission without the troops on the Vulcan ships. And since the mission was landing a large number of troops on Vulcan, that tells me that a warbird is not capable of carrying that number of troops.


That's what I've just been saying! However, you have no basis to say that the warbird can't carry many troops, just because it couldn't carry enough on its own for this mission. What is the minimum number of troops required as determined by the Romulan chiefs-of-staff? What is the overage margin to that figure? What sort fof support staff is required? How about kit? You don't know the answers to any of these questions; therefore, the warbird could hold three brigades - as "lot" of troops, no doubt - but would still require the Vulcan ships to land their troops successfully as well in order to complete the mission. You keep using the fact that the warbird wouldn't/couldn't complete the mission without the Vulcan transports and I've not argued that; unfortunately, that fact says ZERO about the absolute number of troop berths available on the D'Deridex. "Not enough for that particular mission" is not an accurate measure of capacity.

Tiberius wrote:I'd hardly call a thousand troops a number large enough to justify the large size of the warbird. The Enterprise could carry that many if it needed to, and it's far smaller.


Don't be an idiot, I never suggested that 1,000 was the max. capacity. I merely picked an example number in order to illustrate to you that "not enough for this mission" =/= "zero," nor does it equal a statistically-insignificant number. If you're going to look at that example and act like that figure is actually part of my contention - despite the fact that I mentioned it as just an arbitrary number for illustrative purposes - then yes, I feel justified in continuing to use the term "idiot."

Tiberius wrote:But it does show that the number of troops able to be carried by a warbird is not all that great.


It shows nothing of the sort. The ONLY thing it shows is that the troop complement of a D'Deridex is not enough to meet the troop requirement set out for the Vulcan mission. The Allies didn't have any one ship that could carry the entire invasion force for D-Day; would you then conclude that the Allies had NO ships of transporting a substantial number of troops? Of course you wouldn't, but that's exactly what you're doing in the case of the D'Deridex.

Tiberius wrote:let's take an over the top figure and say that the warbird could carry ten thousand troops. This, surely, is far greater than the number of troops that were being carried on the Vulcan ships.


Why? From where did you obtain the maximum complements of the Vulcan transports?

Tiberius wrote:So if the ruse was found out and the Vulcan ships had to be destroyed, wouldn't it be better to destroy them in a way that keeps the warbird hidden? Such as the idea of a self destruct? That way, the vast majority of troops would still get to Vulcan, and be able to complete the mission.


Nope - if, as we BOTH just postulated, the force necessary was in excess of either the D'Deridex or of the Vulcan ship group - independently one from the other - than continuing with the mission with insufficient numbers is stupid. We both agreed that the D'Deridex might not have enough capacity to complete the mission on its own. I'm just still waiting for an explanation of how exactly that logically leads to the conclusion that we can judge the absolute size of the D'Deridex' complement.

Tiberius wrote:Since this did not happen, we must assume that it is not the case, and the warbird does not carry that huge amount of troops.


You can assume that the universe is governed by pink polka-dotted fairy unicorns, too, but there's as much basis for that as for your analysis.

Tiberius wrote:Let's now assume the exact opposite. The warbird can hold some troops, but not many. Say a thousand. Now, the troops on the Vulcan ships are needed - the mission can't continue without them. When they are found out, the troops on the Vulcan ships are destroyed to prevent them from being interrogated. Now, why they chose to have the warbird decloak to destroy them isntead of using a self destruct order is confusing, but ultimately irrelevant. No matter how they are destroyed, there's no point in the warbird continuing to Vulcan, because it doesn't have enough troops to complete the mission. And when the warbird decloaked, it guaranteed that it would never make it to Vulcan. After all, Starfleet would have easily put two and two together and figured that the Romulan ship was going to travel with the Vulcan ships to Vulcan, and they'd figure that they'd better get a bunch of starships to Vulcan right away. In short, by decloaking, the warbird guaranteed there'd be a fleet of ships waiting at Vulcan. By decloaking, the warbird guaranteed it wouldn't be able to complete its mission, no matter how many troops it had.


:bangwall: This is getting frustrating. Here's the deal in a neat, tidy nutshell: whether or not the warbird could have completed the mission without the Vulcan transports is a matter of relative capacity - specifically, did the warbird carry enough troops relative to the mission requirements to complete the mission without the Vulcan transports. Since the warbird, for all intents and purpose, abandoned the mission in order to "poison pill" the transports, we can safely say "No, it didn't." I think we both agree on that point. Here's the problem - there is no logical way to take that and deduce an absolute capacity for any of the ships involved. Hell, we can't even truly assume an accurate relative capacity of the warbird vs. the Vulcan transport. It seems to make sense to say that warbird < 1.5 time one of the transports, but that's still circumstantial and isn't actually supported by the evidence. The ONLY thing we can safely say, based on the facts presented, is that the warbird ALONE didn't carry enough troops to complete the mission.

Tiberius wrote:So this tells me that the forces that were aboard the Vulcan ships were a significant portion of the total number of troops.


No doubt.

Tiberius wrote:Let's say the vulcan ships carried 50% of the troops.


Why would we say that? If you want to make up a number to fit your argument, it hardly seems like a valid argument. Where was it shown - or even suggested - that the Vulcan ships carried 50% of the mission complement? It could have been 30%, it could have been 80%, the resulting behavior on the part of the warbird would have been the same.

Tiberius wrote:You suggested 600 troops a piece


Like fucking hell I did. Here we go again with the willful idiocy. If you are either a) incapable or b) unwilling to distinguish an arbitrary example for illustrative purposes from an actual point of contention, then you have no place debating anything with anyone.

Tiberius wrote:So assuming a crew of 300 or so to actually run the warbird, that gives a total population of the warbird of 2100. The Enterprise D could hold that many people. It easily carried a population of more than a thousand, and if they had cramped quarters they'd be able to fit 2100 easily. I could easily see the Romulans doing this with their troops, so that number of troops on the warbird wouldn't require any greater habitable volume than a Galaxy class ship has. So a troop-transport idea wouldn't require the much greater volume that we see the warbird actually has.

hence my conclusion that the large size of the warbird isn't to carry large numbers of troops.


#1 - From what source did you get the base crew numbers for a D'Deridex?
#2 - If the D'Deridex could, by your estimation, carry many more troops than a GCS, then it's just absolutely dishonest debating to claim that it can't carry troops because you made up numbers to keep it down to GCS levels. In other words, your argument runs like this:
"Hey - I completely fabricated a capacity for the D'Deridex of only 2100 people. Since it should be able to carry more than the fake upper limit which I just pulled out of my ass, it must not carry anyone at all!"
#3 - It's not a "conclusion," it's a starting point from which you made up evidence.
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