Soong Class Positronic Android

The Next Generation

Soong Class Positronic Android

Postby Mark » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:15 am

With Lore disassembled and likely under study by Cmdr. Maddox, and now B4 as well to provide a simpler version for study to help understand the evolution of the technology, do you suppose that eventually they'll be able to construct new androids like B4, Lore, and Data? If so, what will they do with them? Will they make them without "sentience" to just follow orders, or will they create fully functional life forms like Data?

What do you think of the morality of the situation? The practicality? Debate and discuss the issues of building members of a "new species".
They say that in the Army,
the women are mighty fine.
They look like Phyllis Diller,
and walk like Frankenstein.
User avatar
Mark
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 17671
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:49 pm
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii

Re: Soong Class Positronic Android

Postby McAvoy » Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:19 am

The big question with the establisment of Data's sentience, can Starfleet really dissect Lore and B4? Lore could be argued that him being disassembled would be similar to corpses donated for study. But what about B4? How sentient is he?

On the other hand, Lore isn't really a corpse since you can reassemble him and he will work, unlike corpses. B4 would be the equivilant to a mentally handicapped person.
"Don't underestimate the power of technobabble: the Federation can win anything with the sheer force of bullshit"
User avatar
McAvoy
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral
 
Posts: 4067
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:39 am
Location: East Windsor, NJ

Re: Soong Class Positronic Android

Postby Jim » Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:45 pm

....so.... he shows up to the Enterprise in a short shuttle?
Ugh... do not thump the Book of G'Quan...
User avatar
Jim
Commander
Commander
 
Posts: 1497
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:32 pm
Location: Pittsburgh

Re: Soong Class Positronic Android

Postby Mikey » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:00 pm

Jim wrote:....so.... he shows up to the Enterprise in a short shuttle?


:picard:

Mark wrote:With Lore disassembled and likely under study by Cmdr. Maddox, and now B4 as well to provide a simpler version for study to help understand the evolution of the technology, do you suppose that eventually they'll be able to construct new androids like B4, Lore, and Data? If so, what will they do with them? Will they make them without "sentience" to just follow orders, or will they create fully functional life forms like Data?

What do you think of the morality of the situation? The practicality? Debate and discuss the issues of building members of a "new species".


I don't think having Lore to hand will make that much of a difference to Starfleet's ability to reverse engineer a positronic brain. They've had plenty of chances to study Data - one can only assume that there's been logs and recordings of the many times Geordi's been mucking about in Data's head, at the least. As in McAvoy's example with Lore, one need not kill Data to dissect him. The fact that they wanted to do so in TNG: "Measure of a Man" doesn't mean that they couldn't study him without doing so.
"We've been over this. We don't shoot first and ask questions later."
"Of course! We never ask questions."
User avatar
Mikey
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
 
Posts: 33260
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:04 am
Location: down the shore, New Jersey, USA

Re: Soong Class Positronic Android

Postby Graham Kennedy » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:00 pm

There's nothing magical about poitronic brains, and really there's only so far ahead of everyone else that any one scientist can reasonably be. Federation tech has already had 44 years to catch up since Data and Lore were created; they should really already be able to produce positronic brains. Not to be able to is rather like having a guy who was so far ahead of his time in 1968 that we're all still scratching our heads trying to work out how he did it.

As for how they will be treated, that's exactly what Measure of a Man was about. The ruling there indicates that they'll be treated as a new species, much like any other - that's the exact argument Picard made, and the ruling fell his way.
Give a man a fire, and you keep him warm for a day. SET a man on fire, and you will keep him warm for the rest of his life...
User avatar
Graham Kennedy
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8319
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:28 pm
Location: Banbury, UK

Re: Soong Class Positronic Android

Postby Captain Picard's Hair » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:26 pm

GrahamKennedy wrote:There's nothing magical about poitronic brains, and really there's only so far ahead of everyone else that any one scientist can reasonably be. Federation tech has already had 44 years to catch up since Data and Lore were created; they should really already be able to produce positronic brains. Not to be able to is rather like having a guy who was so far ahead of his time in 1968 that we're all still scratching our heads trying to work out how he did it.


Huh, it never occurred to me it had been that long since Data was created. In that light it does seem odd that the brains of Data and Lore are still two of a kind.

From what we saw in "The Offspring" it appears the trouble is more or less how to keep the thing stable. Perhaps other scientists and engineers just figured that it wouldn't be worth the trouble to deal with such finicky technology? IIRC there were various hints dropped at different points that Soong himself went through quite a bit of trouble to get those brains working. Of course, that beggars the question of where's the alternative technology since the standard computer tech of the era hasn't exhibited sentience like Data or Lore.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wonderous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross... but it's not for the timid." Q, Q Who
User avatar
Captain Picard's Hair
Captain
Captain
 
Posts: 3775
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:58 am
Location: Right here.

Re: Soong Class Positronic Android

Postby Captain Seafort » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:29 pm

GrahamKennedy wrote:Not to be able to is rather like having a guy who was so far ahead of his time in 1968 that we're all still scratching our heads trying to work out how he did it.


Well there are longer records...
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.

Across the Universe - Chapter 2 now up
User avatar
Captain Seafort
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 15041
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: Soong Class Positronic Android

Postby McAvoy » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:51 am

GrahamKennedy wrote:There's nothing magical about poitronic brains, and really there's only so far ahead of everyone else that any one scientist can reasonably be. Federation tech has already had 44 years to catch up since Data and Lore were created; they should really already be able to produce positronic brains. Not to be able to is rather like having a guy who was so far ahead of his time in 1968 that we're all still scratching our heads trying to work out how he did it.

As for how they will be treated, that's exactly what Measure of a Man was about. The ruling there indicates that they'll be treated as a new species, much like any other - that's the exact argument Picard made, and the ruling fell his way.


I think the difficulty in creating the positronic brain is that it creates unique and different beings since it has been alluded that Data underwent basically baby stage while his positronic brain stablized and fully mapped itself out. His 'mother' said something that previous attempts caused other Soong androids to fail during this stage. I am not completely sure yet.

However, Soong did perfect his androids when he recreated Data's mother.

I do think, Starfleet by the time B4 was discovered, to recreate Soony type androids. Maybe it's an ethical problem since they are creating a new species (or rather populating it) so what do you do with them? Obviously Starfleet wants a bunch of Datas, but there is no garantee they will get more Datas.
"Don't underestimate the power of technobabble: the Federation can win anything with the sheer force of bullshit"
User avatar
McAvoy
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral
 
Posts: 4067
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:39 am
Location: East Windsor, NJ

Re: Soong Class Positronic Android

Postby SolkaTruesilver » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:53 am

If I had to guess, Starfleet probably has much less desire to research AI in the positronic brain field, as they are already quite advanced in the matter in the Holomatrix field.

And for one of the two, you only have to pre-occupate yourself with software.
SolkaTruesilver
Commander
Commander
 
Posts: 1406
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:49 am

Re: Soong Class Positronic Android

Postby LaughingCheese » Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:31 pm

McAvoy wrote:The big question with the establisment of Data's sentience, can Starfleet really dissect Lore and B4? Lore could be argued that him being disassembled would be similar to corpses donated for study. But what about B4? How sentient is he?

On the other hand, Lore isn't really a corpse since you can reassemble him and he will work, unlike corpses. B4 would be the equivilant to a mentally handicapped person.




How is it even a question ?


I don't see the problem with it at all, since, like you said, they can be reassembled unike a corpse.


So why would there be "ethical" concerns? Seems a fake issue.




The only issue there would be really, would be from Lore, wondering if he could really trust Starfleet not to just melt him down. :lol:
User avatar
LaughingCheese
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander
 
Posts: 955
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:57 am

Re: Soong Class Positronic Android

Postby Captain Seafort » Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:41 pm

LaughingCheese wrote:How is it even a question ?


That's what Bruce Maddox wanted to know.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.

Across the Universe - Chapter 2 now up
User avatar
Captain Seafort
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 15041
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: Soong Class Positronic Android

Postby Tinadrin Chelnor » Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:16 pm

LaughingCheese wrote:How is it even a question ?


I don't see the problem with it at all, since, like you said, they can be reassembled unike a corpse.


So why would there be "ethical" concerns? Seems a fake issue.




The only issue there would be really, would be from Lore, wondering if he could really trust Starfleet not to just melt him down. :lol:


But, if you could be disassembled and reassembled, and still function, would you WANT to be? I know I wouldn't, I'd feel violated. So if they are to be considered sentient, then they should be given the choice.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross... but it's not for the timid." - Q to Picard.
User avatar
Tinadrin Chelnor
Lieutenant
Lieutenant
 
Posts: 587
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:11 am
Location: South and East England, United Kingdom

Re: Soong Class Positronic Android

Postby McAvoy » Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:17 am

So if you are deassembled and can reassembled, which means you can live once again, the amount of sutdying Starfleet would require might make you unable to be reassembled. That is basic idea. Lore isn't technicaly dead, so would those new ethics Data pioneered prevent Starfleet from doing that against Lore or B4? THAT is the question.
"Don't underestimate the power of technobabble: the Federation can win anything with the sheer force of bullshit"
User avatar
McAvoy
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral
 
Posts: 4067
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:39 am
Location: East Windsor, NJ

Re: Soong Class Positronic Android

Postby Mark » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:05 pm

Ahh, but could Starfleet create Soong class androids with a more basic operating system to avoid sentience, therefore develop slave labor or shock troops and be completely in the ethical "right"? Such as using holograms to mine?
They say that in the Army,
the women are mighty fine.
They look like Phyllis Diller,
and walk like Frankenstein.
User avatar
Mark
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 17671
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:49 pm
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii

Re: Soong Class Positronic Android

Postby McAvoy » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:42 pm

Mark wrote:Ahh, but could Starfleet create Soong class androids with a more basic operating system to avoid sentience, therefore develop slave labor or shock troops and be completely in the ethical "right"? Such as using holograms to mine?


Probably. It would be interesting in how they would design such a battle android. Would they carry phasers or would be integrated and would they be armored? Would they even be humanoid? Would they be more robust than data and even stronger than him?

For some reason I am reminded of Iron Man in this respect.
"Don't underestimate the power of technobabble: the Federation can win anything with the sheer force of bullshit"
User avatar
McAvoy
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral
 
Posts: 4067
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:39 am
Location: East Windsor, NJ

Next

Return to TNG

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest