Darmok Question

[Tyyr]

Uhh, actually yes. It is. A metaphor based language doesn't work for anything past a stone age family group. Remember these guys weren't using metaphors but arranging them to produce sentences with deeper meaning. The metaphors were all they had.

"Picard and Dathon at El Adrel" doesn't mean anything to the Tamarians who did not witness the event. They have no reference for who Picard was, what happened at El Adrel, nothing. It would be as much nonsense to your average Tamarian as it would be to you and me. If they try to explain it with, "Darmok and Talad at Tamagra." They've accomplished nothing but create a new way of saying the same thing. Unless you want to give them some kind of telepathy that lets them communicate abstract ideas or a regular language that they abandon for first contact situations it doesn't work. Metaphors require the people hearing them to have the necessary background in the subject to understand what is being communicated. That's why it can work at a stone age level for a family group. Once you grow to any appreciable size then what do you do? How do you communicate a metaphor to someone if they don't know the context?

[Mikey]

As you said, by equating it with a known metaphor. I'm not saying that it's efficient, or even that it would work with a multi-planetary government (which as an aside, I guess is an indication of the limited scope of Tamarian-controlled space.) But an ancient Hittite or Hyskos, upon entering Egypt, wouldn't know the reference to a falcon as conveying the meaning "junior; filial devotion; oedipal complex; or vengeance," nor would they have any frame of reference to guess that it denotes the sound /xh/ or /ch/ - but it still worked among the Egyptians.

The issue isn't with the language of itself within the context of 'Trek; it's with 'Trek's (like most other SF milieus') assumption of global monocultures. If the entire Earth was Christian and always had been, or followed the Icelandic Eddas and always had, or was Vedic Hindu and always had been, etc., etc., then we could use similar theological/mythic/folkloric metaphors and be confident that any other human would understand. The problem stems from the ridiculous notion that every homeworld of sapient life aside from Earth contains such a monoculture.

[Lighthawk]

Still doesn't address how you could convey technical information, something a space faring race would absolutely need. Try explaining trigonometry in metaphor, and not just one that gives a vague idea, but would be capable of explaining the actual mathematical rules and formula needed to preform the calculations.

[Tyyr]

The issue isn't with the language of itself within the context of 'Trek; it's with 'Trek's (like most other SF milieus') assumption of global monocultures. If the entire Earth was Christian and always had been, or followed the Icelandic Eddas and always had, or was Vedic Hindu and always had been, etc., etc., then we could use similar theological/mythic/folkloric metaphors and be confident that any other human would understand. The problem stems from the ridiculous notion that every homeworld of sapient life aside from Earth contains such a monoculture.

Even assuming a global monoculture you're limiting yourself to a set in stone group of metaphors. Lets say that our planet was entirely Christian and always had been. That doesn't help. You're confined to the metaphors everyone can relate to which would likely be those you could find in the Bible. What happens when you need to express a new concept? The only reference everyone shares is the Bible and while it's got a lot of stuff what happens when you need to explain something that doesn't neatly fit into the existing metaphoric body? How do you articulate new thoughts? You still have the problem that "Picard and Dathon at El Adrel," is gibberish. With people spread out all over the planet you no longer share experiences with everyone else on the planet. Your language essentially seizes up and you're not even off your planet yet.

And like LH asks, you're still left with the problem of conveying precise technical information.

[Mikey]

First off, let me say that I'm talking about possibility, not probability. The Tamarian language evolving as it has is admittedly implausible - but it's possible.

As to new concepts, like "Dathon and Picard at El Adrel," they'd be defined by comaprison to extant usages, then disseminated with that meaning the same way anything else is. In my mono-theological example, the limitation to mythological and folkloric references isn't so much of an issue if everything is couched in terms of those references, the same way the Tamarian language seemed to. Shaka wasn't a friend of someone on that ship, or a recent sports hero; he was as Sigurd is to the Germans or Cuchulainn is to the Irish. It's not perfect, but again I'm discussing possibility rather than probability or even ease of use.

Lighthawk brings up a far more troubling point, and one for which I have no answer.

[stitch626]

Yeah, how do you say shoot them, but don't kill them. Though they seem to have been able to do that.

[Mikey]

Yeah, how do you say shoot them, but don't kill them. Though they seem to have been able to do that.

That would probably be pretty easy to relay metaphorically. I think LH was referring more to something like, "I need exactly 15 ohms of impedance right here."

[stitch626]

Oh... yeah.

[Mark]

I can see them in battle now

Tamarian ship encounteres Klingon Vor'cha which opens fire.

Trying to raise the shields "Otha and Pathel at Ronil. Otha and Pathel faced mighty foe and in danger. Otha and Pathel........"

Ship explodes before shields ever raised.