TNG: Unification

[SolkaTruesilver]

But maybe you don't need to defend a planet, that's the thing. Ultimately, you need to defend the local installations, like the supply base, the repair facilities, etc... In short, the war effort this planet is providing, rather than conquering every square kilometers of the planet.

Still insufficient unless the entire war supporting ability of a world is concentrated in an area of less than a square kilometer.

I was referring to the 500,000 cardassians composing the 11th Order, not the 2000 romulans

[Tyyr]

Still only a few small places. Given the necessary infrastructure to support any kind of modern manufacturing you can't possibly secure even a minor operation with half a million men. The invaders would be able to shut you down easily. After all what good is a factory without power, or widget X, or fuel for it's delivery vehicles, or access to a spaceport, etc. You're not going to accomplish anything worthwhile in a planetary invasion without tens of millions of troops unless you're dealing with total sheeple.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Still only a few small places. Given the necessary infrastructure to support any kind of modern manufacturing you can't possibly secure even a minor operation with half a million men. The invaders would be able to shut you down easily. After all what good is a factory without power, or widget X, or fuel for it's delivery vehicles, or access to a spaceport, etc. You're not going to accomplish anything worthwhile in a planetary invasion without tens of millions of troops unless you're dealing with total sheeple.

500,000 men isn't ennough to secure a medium-cized city?

[Mikey]

Not nearly, unless by "medium-sized city" you really mean "tiny hamlet."

[Tyyr]

500,000 men isn't ennough to secure a medium-cized city?

A medium sized city ain't shit when it comes to planetary industrial output.

[Captain Seafort]

Not nearly, unless by "medium-sized city" you really mean "tiny hamlet."

That's an exaggeration - a hamlet or small village could be taken by a brigade. A city, of course, provided it was reasonably well defended, would require considerably more men - two to three million, give or take. Half a million could do a very good job of defending even a decent sized city, but there's no way a single city on a planet would be worth defending. It's resources would be trivial compared to the planet as a whole, so you'd be much better off withdrawing entirely and putting those troops to better work by adding to the defence of another world.

2,000 Soldiers holding off a planet of 6,000,000,000? 3,000,000 to one odds isn't incompetent... it's... there's no word for it. Hell, all you've got to do if you really want them out is you take a shuttle up in the air, accelerate it to a nice high velocity and slam it down on the Romulan position. Problem solved.

If there are no military forces currently stationed on the planet (plausible, given Earth's complete lack of defences in Homefront/Paradise Lost) and the default reaction of the local population is to stand around gawping I can see it happening. Against the UK, let alone the US or Afghanistan, even if you ignore the military and law enforcement, they would of course get the shit kicked out of them. Against the Feds I imagine it would be something of a different story.

[SolkaTruesilver]

On the other hand, Weyoun did qualify Septimus III as a strategically insignificant planet. For all we know, it was merely beaches and retirement homes for soldiers who honorably served the Cardassian Union.

The Klingons saw there were soldiers there (as their Federation allies wouldn't accept them attacking civilians), and they thought they could give these soldiers an Honorable Death rather than Dishonorable Retirement.

[Captain Seafort]

On the other hand, Weyoun did qualify Septimus III as a strategically insignificant planet.

Then there shouldn't have been any military forces there.

[SolkaTruesilver]

On the other hand, Weyoun did qualify Septimus III as a strategically insignificant planet.

Then there shouldn't have been any military forces there.

Except if you consider the posted military forces there are olds and/or woundeds. Which actually make sense to post them out of strategically relevant locations.

[Captain Seafort]

Except if you consider the posted military forces there are olds and/or woundeds. Which actually make sense to post them out of strategically relevant locations.

Then they should be posted either in reserve or in the rear areas, not wasted. Even if the men could be spared, their equipment certainly couldn't.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Except if you consider the posted military forces there are olds and/or woundeds. Which actually make sense to post them out of strategically relevant locations.

Then they should be posted either in reserve or in the rear areas, not wasted. Even if the men could be spared, their equipment certainly couldn't.

They were reserve.

And we don't know what kind of equipment they were allocated. We just know they got massacred to a single man.

[Captain Seafort]

They were reserve.

They were a reserve unit. They clearly weren't in reserve, or in the rear areas, otherwise they wouldn't have taken the brunt of the Klingon attack

And we don't know what kind of equipment they were allocated. We just know they got massacred to a single man.

I never said anything about what type of equipment they had - I pointed out that equipment cannot simply be thrown away, because every thing that's lost has to be replaced. This is especially true of a retreating force, with a contracting industrial base.

[Mark]

I suppose he could have been referring to the planets "militia". But even then you've got to be careful. Militia has always been qualified as "unreliable" or "easy" troops. Hell, the US was founded with mostly an army of militia. And believe me, you'd need an impressive force for certain local folks. People laugh about our "hilbillies", but those sons of guns been learning to shoot since they were in diapers, know their land, and are territorial as hell. You don't really wanna piss off "Uncle Jed".

[Captain Seafort]

I suppose he could have been referring to the planets "militia".

It was the 11th Order. Given that previous Cardie "Orders" have been depicted as major front-line formations, it would need quite a bit of evidence to demonstrate that the 11th was something different.

But even then you've got to be careful. Militia has always been qualified as "unreliable" or "easy" troops. Hell, the US was founded with mostly an army of militia. And believe me, you'd need an impressive force for certain local folks. People laugh about our "hilbillies", but those sons of guns been learning to shoot since they were in diapers, know their land, and are territorial as hell. You don't really wanna piss off "Uncle Jed".

Militia are always inherently unreliable - you don't know from one unit to the next whether they'll fight as hard as the best of the regulars or leg it at the first sign of trouble. There's also the issue of training. Stubbornness, local knowledge, and good fieldcraft and weapon-handling skills are all well and good, but a team will always wipe the floor with a group of individuals. Napoleon once said something along the lines of a single Mameluke being able to beat two Frenchmen, but a few hundred Frenchmen being about beat a thousand Mamelukes.

[SolkaTruesilver]

I suppose he could have been referring to the planets "militia". But even then you've got to be careful. Militia has always been qualified as "unreliable" or "easy" troops. Hell, the US was founded with mostly an army of militia. And believe me, you'd need an impressive force for certain local folks. People laugh about our "hilbillies", but those sons of guns been learning to shoot since they were in diapers, know their land, and are territorial as hell. You don't really wanna piss off "Uncle Jed".

While I understand that sentiment, I don't think Uncle Jed could do shit against a Main Battle Tank or Hypersonic Predator Drones that comes to kill him and his family.

The whole "we have to defend against the government" schlick is kinda rendered moot now, as the government's military force can muster something that is effectively ridiculously powerful compared to a volountary milita. Maybe in the late 18th century, Militia were relevant, they aren't now.

(Unless, off course, if you commit your troops in the middle of the danger zone and expose them to ennemy fire. A bullet is a bullet, and will always have the potential of killing a man. It's just that a government or an invading army has more than just men on the battlefield)