Should Hugh Have Been Used To Destroy The Borg?

[Sionnach Glic]

Well, since we seem to be in agreement that SFDebris' review didn't really cover this subject adequately, I figured we could host our own discussion of the matter here.

[Deepcrush]

Chuck did bring the topic up and then left it to the viewers to decide so... guess this thread was coming along...

[Nickswitz]

Your rank is pissing me off Rochey...

And as much as using a person as a weapon seems horrible, I'm unsure of this... It not only means that they would be eliminating an entire race, but it would also mean saving multiple races. So really what you have to weigh isn't the better good, but if you have the right to decide. The Borg are a brilliant culture, they have the best technology available and can literally fix anything. The culture's they destroy may be individual cultures, but what is 'better' for the overall good. I mean the Borg could in theory bring complete peace to the universe by asimilating all other cultures but then all cultures would be gone.

So IDK to be truthful, it would eliminate the biggest threat to any race in the universe, but it would also mean eliminating a culture that is more advanced than anything ever available.

[Captain Seafort]

So really what you have to weigh isn't the better good, but if you have the right to decide.

Picard didn't have the right to decide - he had a duty to defend the Federation.

The Borg are a brilliant culture

Hardly. If anything they demonstrate a distinct lack of a culture, any more than termites.

they have the best technology available and can literally fix anything.

Far from it. The Voth would have them for breakfast, and if they can fix anything how come so many of their cubes are scattered across space in a very large number of very small non-working pieces.

I mean the Borg could in theory bring complete peace to the universe

True. Just as a Base Delta Zero would bring peace to a planet.

it would also mean eliminating a culture that is more advanced than anything ever available.

It would mean eliminating a plague of locusts. No more, no less. They're not even the most advanced group in Trek - both the Voth and (arguably) the Q have demonstrated more advanced technology.

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

Picard had a duty. The Borg as a whole cannot be negotiated with. Yes, they bring peace-the peace of the grave. Order of a the jackboot. One drone under certain circumstances might be able to be freed... while billions more are assimilated.

They must be stopped. They have to be stopped. Or else death will follow in their wake.

[Nickswitz]

Picard didn't have the right to decide - he had a duty to defend the Federation.

Fair point.

Hardly. If anything they demonstrate a distinct lack of a culture, any more than termites.

They don't really have a lack of culture.
Culture from Dictionary.com

the quality in a person or society that arises from a concern for what is regarded as excellent in arts, letters, manners, scholarly pursuits, etc.

I believe that their aim would be scholarly pursuits, and they do have that aim due to the lack of interest in certain species such as the Kazon, the Ferengi, etc.

Far from it. The Voth would have them for breakfast, and if they can fix anything how come so many of their cubes are scattered across space in a very large number of very small non-working pieces.

Very true, however they theoretically could have the best technology. The Voth however are far superior to them technological wise.

It would mean eliminating a plague of locusts. No more, no less. They're not even the most advanced group in Trek - both the Voth and (arguably) the Q have demonstrated more advanced technology.

But the difference between them and a plague of locust is that they are working towards something beyond what they need. They are working for perfection, which they do not have, a plague of locust looks for food.

And just a point, I wouldn't say Q have advanced tech, they just come born advanced, it's more biological than technological.

[Captain Seafort]

I believe that their aim would be scholarly pursuits, and they do have that aim due to the lack of interest in certain species such as the Kazon, the Ferengi, etc.

But the difference between them and a plague of locust is that they are working towards something beyond what they need. They are working for perfection, which they do not have, a plague of locust looks for food.

Scholarly? They're consumers. They travel in straight lines, absorbing what they want and ignoring or destroying the rest. They claim to seek "perfection" or and improved quality of life for all species, but their actions demonstrate that they're only interested in resources - mineral, technological and biological.

Very true, however they theoretically could have the best technology.

Evidence for this?

And just a point, I wouldn't say Q have advanced tech, they just come born advanced, it's more biological than technological.

If their abilities are inherent and have a biological origin then how can a Q be cut off from them, and how can they be issued to non-Q in the form of 1860s rifled muskets?

[Nickswitz]

Scholarly? They're consumers. They travel in straight lines, absorbing what they want and ignoring or destroying the rest. They claim to seek "perfection" or and improved quality of life for all species, but their actions demonstrate that they're only interested in resources - mineral, technological and biological.

Locusts don't go through only the good fields to eat, they eat everything

The Borg are looking to improve themselves. And if they were looking at only resources why would they destroy potential useful ships, such as the ones at Wolf 359 that some of which could have advanced them.

Evidence for this?

The fact that they advance based on what they got, they advanced past 8472's weapons, which were extremely advanced, although they did have Voyagers help, so never mind, point conceded.

I believe that their aim would be scholarly pursuits, and they do have that aim due to the lack of interest in certain species such as the Kazon, the Ferengi, etc.

But the difference between them and a plague of locust is that they are working towards something beyond what they need. They are working for perfection, which they do not have, a plague of locust looks for food.

Scholarly? They're consumers. They travel in straight lines, absorbing what they want and ignoring or destroying the rest. They claim to seek "perfection" or and improved quality of life for all species, but their actions demonstrate that they're only interested in resources - mineral, technological and biological.

Very true, however they theoretically could have the best technology.

Evidence for this?

And just a point, I wouldn't say Q have advanced tech, they just come born advanced, it's more biological than technological.

If their abilities are inherent and have a biological origin then how can a Q be cut off from them, and how can they be issued to non-Q in the form of 1860s rifled muskets?

Hmm... good question... I guess I always assumed that it was biological as the little girl had the power since her birth, but your right, now looking at that it does make less sense it being biological...

[Captain Seafort]

Locusts don't go through only the good fields to eat, they eat everything

They must, however, avoid those that are poisonous, otherwise they'd be in the shit as a species.

The Borg are looking to improve themselves. And if they were looking at only resources why would they destroy potential useful ships, such as the ones at Wolf 359 that some of which could have advanced them.

Because they were being shot at at the time. Survival > acquiring a few thousand tons of scrap metal.

they advanced past 8472's weapons

They did no such thing - they were getting the shit kicked out of them until 8472 got a bloody nose and scarpered. Both the Borg and Voyager were lucky that they did so, as they could have destroyed Voyager with little effort had they gone after her.

I guess I always assumed that it was biological as the little girl had the power since her birth, but your right, now looking at that it does make less sense it being biological...

Some aspects of their abilities are clearly inherent, but I suspect that it's their access that's biological (perhaps some form of telepathy), not the origin of the abilities.

[Nickswitz]

They must, however, avoid those that are poisonous, otherwise they'd be in the s**t as a species.

No, they do, they run straight through those fields and consequently die, thus why people in locust ridden areas will spray all of their fields, and still lose all of their crop.

Because they were being shot at at the time. Survival > acquiring a few thousand tons of scrap metal.

Fair enough, conceeded

They did no such thing - they were getting the s**t kicked out of them until 8472 got a bloody nose and scarpered. Both the Borg and Voyager were lucky that they did so, as they could have destroyed Voyager with little effort had they gone after her.

Didn't Voyager find a "cure" for the 8472 infection as well as to kill the ships...

[Captain Seafort]

No, they do, they run straight through those fields and consequently die, thus why people in locust ridden areas will spray all of their fields, and still lose all of their crop.

I was talking about crops that are poisonous to them on their own, not those that have been sprayed. Nonetheless, perhaps locusts aren't a perfect match to the Borg given that even they evidently ignore the exceptionally stupid. Nonetheless, I object to the claim that Borg "society" is a finely crafted jewel, to which only species that provide a specific advantage are added. They simply absorb anything in their path that they identify as usable. It's far more likely that absorbing the Talaxians and Kazon has been identified as being an inefficient use of resources than "detracting from perfection" as Seven put it. The fact that she was addressing one of the more obnoxious members of the species at the time adds weight to the likelihood that the statement was simply intended to put Neelix back in his box than as a nuanced description of Borg grand strategy.

Didn't Voyager find a "cure" for the 8472 infection as well as to kill the ships...

They were able to cure Harry, but the biggest problem the Borg had with 8472 was their weapons' ability to rip a cube apart in five seconds flat, not the side effects of injuries inflicted by the creatures' claws.

[Mikey]

The point is not whether the Borg have a culture, because nobody's motivation was ever that of antipathy towards the Borg's culture. Rather, the goal of using Hugh as a poison pill was to stop the Borg from destroying everything else. The fact that Borg "culture" (such as it is) would be eradicated was quite tangential to that.

[Nickswitz]

I was talking about crops that are poisonous to them on their own, not those that have been sprayed. Nonetheless, perhaps locusts aren't a perfect match to the Borg given that even they evidently ignore the exceptionally stupid. Nonetheless, I object to the claim that Borg "society" is a finely crafted jewel, to which only species that provide a specific advantage are added. They simply absorb anything in their path that they identify as usable. It's far more likely that absorbing the Talaxians and Kazon has been identified as being an inefficient use of resources than "detracting from perfection" as Seven put it. The fact that she was addressing one of the more obnoxious members of the species at the time adds weight to the likelihood that the statement was simply intended to put Neelix back in his box than as a nuanced description of Borg grand strategy.

So your assuming that everything that they have ever stated is a lie. They look for perfection, they tell everyone that they do, how is that not a cultural advancement?

[stitch626]

but their actions demonstrate that they're only interested in resources - mineral, technological and biological.

If this were the case, they would never ignore anything. They would see a ship, and then assimilate it. The fact that they ignore not threats, and the fact that they consider some species too low to assimilate shows that they are concerned with improvement more than simple resource gathering.

[Captain Seafort]

So your assuming that everything that they have ever stated is a lie.

Correct. Not a great leap, given that their objective is to either turn everyone into Borg or destroy them.