Have you ever noticed....

The Next Generation
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Re: Have you ever noticed....

Post by Atekimogus »

Sionnach Glic wrote:Given that it was outright stated that Starfleet doesn't consider tactics to be an important part of training, it's not surprising that even Starfleet's "best of the best" can be defeated by the ship of fools Pakled.
Well to be fair I always wondered how much "tactic" there can be given the ship-systems (shields, weapons which almost never miss, ships traveling FTL) we see and how much is actually done by the computer since humanoids aren't able to react fast enough.

Sure you might utilize planets as cover, nebulas etc. but that should be the rare execption. You might have some tactics in large fleet actions but two ships facing off, what can you do other than engage, fire everything you got and hope you have luck and the stronger vessel? You might outmaneuvre your opponent which falls under having the better and faster vessel imho, you might outgun him or have stronger shields. I don't see how you can utilize meaningful "tactics" in empty space. Surprise and flanking attacks don't work for example, you have nothing you could use as cover etc. .
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Re: Have you ever noticed....

Post by Mark »

Lets see, just off the top of my head........

You could use tractor beams to hold the other ship in position.
You could blanket the area with (insert particle) to drown their sensors.
You could jam their communications.
You could use a series of micro jumps to constantly attack from different angles.
You could actually use the Z axis.
You could use unmanned shuttles as diversions, as big antimatter bombs, or any number of things.
You could use your transporter to either beam stuff aboard an enemy ship OR beam away critical components like say.......the warp core.
You could use a controlled flat spin to minimize the damage any one ship may take, and bring all your weapons to bear as well.
You could hide in ships blind spots.
You could get in so tight they can't use torps for risk of damaging themselves.
You could use your transporter or tractor beams to deflect incoming torps.

Shall I go on?
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Re: Have you ever noticed....

Post by Atekimogus »

Sure, you are right but imho most of the things you listed fall under the categorie of :

"things your ship is or is not able to do without beeing countered because of design: like tractor beams, superior sensors, jamming communication (for whatever this helps in a one on one which I was refereing to:)), sheer firepower

"things which probably won't work because noone ever uses them" like : transporter, tractorsbeams against torpedoes, transporterbeam to damage enemy ship etc (all good ideas I admit)

"things which require autopilot to properly execute" : micro-warp jumps, cant imagine a human pilot could do this right

"things which are highly unlikely but possible" . Using the Z-axis, hiding in blind spots. Beeing able to utilize on this means beeing able to fly far faster than your enemy is able to turn. Now most startrek ships are not exactly fighters yet given their size the are remarkedly maneuverable. Not impossible grant you, but considering those supposedly huge distances I find it rather unlikely.

Now I am not saying you are wrong, most of the things you said are fine examples how they could make ship-battles far more interesting in the shows (I am not sure if you are familiar with starfleet command but most tactics you quoted could be right from the game, which is considered the most tactical of all, so good job there:)) yet when all is said and done the most important factor still seems to be which type of ship you are flying atm.

So instead of trying to be brilliant (like searching half a minute for a weakness in an old d-12, all the time without returning fire) Riker should occasionally just point all his formidable weaponry on an enemy and just shoot and he would be far more effective imho.
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Re: Have you ever noticed....

Post by Mikey »

Your example of the D-12 is very good, as an example of over-thinking a situation. But the fact that the ship's systems can perform all those things, probably better than a humanoid, doesn't negate the idea of tactical awareness. The ship's systems can execute those actions, but can't come up with the ideas.
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Re: Have you ever noticed....

Post by stitch626 »

Micro warp jumps could easily be too stressful on the engines.

Also, using transporters usually requires lowering shields... which means bad idea in combat.
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Re: Have you ever noticed....

Post by Sionnach Glic »

Atekimogus wrote:
Sionnach Glic wrote:Given that it was outright stated that Starfleet doesn't consider tactics to be an important part of training, it's not surprising that even Starfleet's "best of the best" can be defeated by the ship of fools Pakled.
Well to be fair I always wondered how much "tactic" there can be given the ship-systems (shields, weapons which almost never miss, ships traveling FTL) we see and how much is actually done by the computer since humanoids aren't able to react fast enough.

Sure you might utilize planets as cover, nebulas etc. but that should be the rare execption. You might have some tactics in large fleet actions but two ships facing off, what can you do other than engage, fire everything you got and hope you have luck and the stronger vessel? You might outmaneuvre your opponent which falls under having the better and faster vessel imho, you might outgun him or have stronger shields. I don't see how you can utilize meaningful "tactics" in empty space. Surprise and flanking attacks don't work for example, you have nothing you could use as cover etc. .
Let's be realistic for a second, even if Trek usually isn't.
How often, logically, are two lone ships going to run into each other in the middle of empty space? The vast majority of space warfare would be fleet actions, which require a good knowledge of tactics.
Most of these battles would take place around strategically important areas of a solar system, such as planets, moons, nebulae, stations and asteroids. This requires knowledge of how to use the "terrain" to your advantage.
Then there's the tactics related to organising a planetary assault, defending and raiding convoys, attacking stations, dealing with reinforcements, etc. Again, to properly defend an area against an enemy fleet or to outmaneouvre and outfight a defending force requires tactics.

Sure, 1 V 1 conflicts have little scope for tactics. But warfare in general has a hell of a lot.
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Re: Have you ever noticed....

Post by Atekimogus »

Sionnach Glic wrote: Let's be realistic for a second, even if Trek usually isn't.
How often, logically, are two lone ships going to run into each other in the middle of empty space? The vast majority of space warfare would be fleet actions, which require a good knowledge of tactics.
Well....about 95% of the time give or take a few percent? It is not until later DS9 episodes that we ever see more than a few ships around, the only two fleet actions I remember at the moment were wolf 359 and the few ships during the klingon civil war.
Sionnach Glic wrote:Most of these battles would take place around strategically important areas of a solar system, such as planets, moons, nebulae, stations and asteroids. This requires knowledge of how to use the "terrain" to your advantage.
Altough I agree to a degree the importance of "terrain" in star trek is vastly overrated imho. Thats the point of space, it virtually has no terrain. Even the distances within a solar system are incredibly huge, nebulas have a far less particle density than one would think etc..

How the dominion fleet was ever able to intercept and blockade the federation during operation return in DEEP SPACE is something I never was able to grasp, hey not complaining, cool bit of FX and the galaxy wing was cool, nevertheless....

Sionnach Glic wrote:Sure, 1 V 1 conflicts have little scope for tactics. But warfare in general has a hell of a lot.
Altough it is not all to clear where to draw the line if you are talking about warfare in general I think you confuse strategy with tactic.
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Re: Have you ever noticed....

Post by Aaron »

:lol: I like the bit where Picard orders him out of the system to inform the Federation Council, a job that could have been done by a comms probe, a shuttle, that scout Data had or the Captains Gig. Then the Big E could have been around for support and we could have avoided that whole terrible ordeal of bad jokes, Picard buggering an alien broad and Work playing cricket with a drone.
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Re: Have you ever noticed....

Post by Sionnach Glic »

Atekimogus wrote:Well....about 95% of the time give or take a few percent? It is not until later DS9 episodes that we ever see more than a few ships around, the only two fleet actions I remember at the moment were wolf 359 and the few ships during the klingon civil war.
As I said, I was talking realisticaly.
Atekimogus wrote:Altough I agree to a degree the importance of "terrain" in star trek is vastly overrated imho. Thats the point of space, it virtually has no terrain. Even the distances within a solar system are incredibly huge, nebulas have a far less particle density than one would think etc..

How the dominion fleet was ever able to intercept and blockade the federation during operation return in DEEP SPACE is something I never was able to grasp, hey not complaining, cool bit of FX and the galaxy wing was cool, nevertheless....
I'd tend to agree with you there. I was refering mainly to the sensor-jamming nebulae that seem to pop up all over the place.
Atekimogus wrote:Altough it is not all to clear where to draw the line if you are talking about warfare in general I think you confuse strategy with tactic.
I disagree. Tactics refers to the maneouvres and commands made during a battle. Strategy would be how you prosecute a war as a whole. My comments were refering to the former.
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Re: Have you ever noticed....

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About the fleet scenes we have seen. We should have 'seen' a battle similar to the Battle of Jutland than a some sort of 'knife' battle (extremely close range battle, example: Japanese cruisers vs. US cruiser in WW2). This is just based on the idea that the phasers and torpedoes have ranges that far exceed the hundreds of meters that we saw in the fleet scenes. Of course it wouldn't be as 'kool'.

I mean you have ships with weapons in the tens of thousands of kilometer range in wide open space, and you have a fleet of 600 ships fighting 1,200 ship fleet with both sides using the same tactics of using the flying wall formation, fighting within a few hundred meters of each other, with nearby friendly ships even closer in some situations. Wooden sailing Ships of the Line fought at longer distances.

What we should have seen was a widely spaced out fleet, with individual elements similar that were stated like "Galaxy Wing". With individual elements of the fleet performing a certain task, like the Galaxys could be the backbone of the fleet like a battleship or command ship. Excelsiors could be the screening cruisers. Mirandas and Sabres could be the equivilant of destroyers. Akiras could with their torpedo firepower attack at long range, and so forth. Instead of the free-for-all.

But then again there is really no noticeable difference between one ship and the other except basically power. Put four or five Mirandas against a Dominion battlecruiser and the Mirandas may win. But pit a bunch of Fletcher class destroyers against the IJN Yamato and the destroyers will get smashed even with the smaller secondary weapons.
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Re: Have you ever noticed....

Post by Mikey »

All that is fair to say, except that you should amend the basis of that to say, "phasers and torpedoes have ranges that should far exceed the hundreds of meters that we saw in the fleet scenes" and "you have ships with weapons that should be in the tens of thousands of kilometer range in wide open space..."

What we saw is what we saw. It might not seem logical to us, but there is a definite if unspecified reason IU that ships engage at the ridiculously close ranges that we see.
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Re: Have you ever noticed....

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We at least know that the problem isn't related to the weapons themselves, given that we saw the Phoenix destroy a Galor at 300,000 km in "The Wounded". The problem is therefore probably related to ECM, although I'm not aware of any ranges observed or stated against inert objects that might additionally support this.
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Re: Have you ever noticed....

Post by Sionnach Glic »

Well we know that their proper range is at least 300,000KM. I'd be willing to put down the bizzarely low ranges that are more often seen as being down to ECM.
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Re: Have you ever noticed....

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Ironically that is why I think TOS did the best battle scenes. Why? Because iirc you never saw both combatants at the same time. You got a shot of the Enterprise firing, then a shot showing the target beeing missed or hit, breaking to the left or right etc. and most of the time the enemy vessel (because of the low budget a real simple model) was shown only from a very distant position, basically a lightning-bulb in space.

It managed to be dramatic and you got a feeling for the huge distances. True, it lacked the space fighter dog-fight quality of star wars and wasn't exactly pretty.
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Re: Have you ever noticed....

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Atekimogus wrote:Ironically that is why I think TOS did the best battle scenes. Why? Because iirc you never saw both combatants at the same time. You got a shot of the Enterprise firing, then a shot showing the target beeing missed or hit, breaking to the left or right etc. and most of the time the enemy vessel (because of the low budget a real simple model) was shown only from a very distant position, basically a lightning-bulb in space.

It managed to be dramatic and you got a feeling for the huge distances. True, it lacked the space fighter dog-fight quality of star wars and wasn't exactly pretty.
I agree - and it was made better by the fact that it was only during those few quick images that you even saw the ship from a third-party perspective. Everything else was on the bridge, either ignoring the hostile ship entirely or showing it on the viewscreen. The only time we saw TNG do it in a similar way was in "The Wounded", and I don't think it's a coincidence that that was also the longest range shot in TNG+ Trek.
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