Money

Thorin · Post by **Thorin** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:26 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:Evidence from TOS I'm a little reluctant to accept as evidence of its TNG+ status given the major changes to the Federation in the intervening years.

You're basing this on...?

And I hope you'll forgive me if I ask for a more reliable source than a Wiki.

Then search for the episode yourself. At some level or another, for me to prove it to you, it has to have been written by someone, whether it be me or someone else. Nothing I can do if you don't believe me and whoever writes up on the various wikis or episode guides.

The Federation is inferred to be a democracy, but actual evidence of that status is lacking - it's all assumptions and euphamisms rather than actual evidence.

Apart from there been no doubt as to an elected Council that are basically the government, and TOS's catagorical statement it is a democracy.

There's certainly evidence of represetation on the Council, but the power of individual members, and the manner in which these members are chosen is uncertain. Pre-TNG references include T'pau rejecting a seat on the council (implying that one was offered to her - strange if seats were elected positions), and the presence of a Council of only around 30 members (including Starfleet officers!) in ST4

T'pau rejecting a seat only means that she changed her mind? That in no way proves or gives any evidence that the Council is not democratically elected (which we know it is - again you're arguing with established cannon). The image we see in ST4 doesn't show that the entire council was present, and seems against this view as Starfleet oficers were present - I refer you to the point about arguing against established cannon.

...council seats are not elected

Arguing with established cannon... Not much I can say really, is there?

2) there may be an "inner council" that is smaller than the full council (150+ members in TNG, unknown but presumably smaller at the time of ST4)

Possible but complete conjecture and speculation with no evidence.

3) the council has at times included Starfleet officers

Maybe because the people who were elected by their planet were already members of Starfleet? True that is speculation, but just as much as saying that they had Starfleet Officers in them.

Alternately, this body may be a collection of senior government officials, including the Chiefs of Staff of the Federation Armed Forces.

It may well be, but speculation again.

The Federation Council is the highest body in the Federation (ie the Government) - cannon
The Federation Council is democratically elected - cannon
During TOS, the entirity of the Federation is a democracy - cannon

There is little/nothing to suggest that the latter of these cannon statements has changed. To say that things have changed since TOS just because they could have is a bit unrealistic in my opinion. It's like saying that any established cannon could have changed a year later. Or that everything we see on screen are holograms. Just taking things far out of context and away from their face value.

Post by **Teaos** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:18 am

You're basing this on...?

The fact that things are very different. TNG and TOS are almost totally different Federations.

Wiki is a fine place to get information from if you just need a quick reference.

Apart from there been no doubt as to an elected Council that are basically the government, and TOS's catagorical statement it is a democracy.

We have never seen or heard talk of any form of voting.

Thorin · Post by **Thorin** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:15 am

Teaos wrote:
We have never seen or heard talk of any form of voting.

...Apart from it been explicitly mentioned that Bajor would need to elect people for the Federation Council...

Monroe · Post by **Monroe** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:05 am

T'Pol's rejection was against the Vulcan council not the Federation one. The Vulcan council would elect someone to be on the Federation one I would think.

I think it would be like the EU is today. Every country chooses its own parimentry member to vote democratically even if the process of choosing isn't very democratic.

Post by **Teaos** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:30 am

...Apart from it been explicitly mentioned that Bajor would need to elect people for the Federation Council...

That could just be the way they choose their counciler. Others could just be appointent.

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:20 am

Monroe wrote:T'Pol's rejection was against the Vulcan council not the Federation one. The Vulcan council would elect someone to be on the Federation one I would think.

It was T'Pau (TOS:"Amok Time"), not T'Pol. Vulcan names are similar enough to be bloody confusing. It was specifically mentioned that she rejected a seat on the Federation Council.

Thorin · Post by **Thorin** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:17 pm

Teaos wrote:
...Apart from it been explicitly mentioned that Bajor would need to elect people for the Federation Council...
That could just be the way they choose their counciler. Others could just be appointent.

Bajor was told this by the Federation. Not decided amongst themselves.

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:08 pm

Thorin, what is your source for the statement that Council members must be elected. The only source I can find regarding Bajor's selection of councilors is this from DS9:"Rapture"

WHATLEY
Ben, I need to know I can count on
you. Bajor's admission is only
the beginning. Now comes the hard
part Federation council members
have to be chosen... the Bajoran
militia has to be absorbed into
Starfleet... there are thousands
of details that have to be
overseen. And you're our point
man here. That means we need to
depend on you more than ever.

Note the language - chosen, not elected.

Thorin · Post by **Thorin** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:26 pm

And who choses them? A man with his dog? How else could they join the Federation Council?

I have yet to see any evidence to the contrary that the Federation has changed from a diplomacy to any other form of government from TOS til TNG.

Stevexoc · Post by **Stevexoc** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:42 pm

National Review Online recently had an interesting "Star Trek" weekend, and one of the articles by Ilya Somin posits the theory that the Federation was some kind of feudal society in which member worlds paid tribute to the Federation in return for Starfleet protection. She (or he) bases this on a lack of evidence that money doesn't exist anywhere but on Earth and in the military (Starfleet). Everywhere else there seems to be at least some form of monetary economy; so member worlds simply support the "paradise" on Earth, while Starfleet kills the baddies. This is just a summary of her (or his) argument, but feel free to go to National Review and check it out. It was an interesting theory (which is obviously counter to Roddenbery's ideal) to explain away some of the Trek economy problems.

Post by **Teaos** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:01 pm

They could be choosen by a king or noblemen or anything like that. Democracy is fairly new on earth and the chances of it being galaxtic is very slim. Some may do it that way some may not. I think Betazed has some form of royal family.

Thorin · Post by **Thorin** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:47 pm

Teaos wrote:They could be choosen by a king or noblemen or anything like that. Democracy is fairly new on earth and the chances of it being galaxtic is very slim. Some may do it that way some may not. I think Betazed has some form of royal family.

I think it was a prequisit that the Federation only accepted democratic populations - at least that's what was very strongly implied in "Attached", where the part of the planet that intended to join was democratic, and that was definitely seen as a good thing (one of the reasons why it had a good chance of joining the Federation, until after the episode, at least

).

But again, I see no evidence that the Federation changed the entire mode of government between TOS and TNG.

Monroe · Post by **Monroe** » Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:40 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:
Monroe wrote:T'Pol's rejection was against the Vulcan council not the Federation one. The Vulcan council would elect someone to be on the Federation one I would think.
It was T'Pau (TOS:"Amok Time"), not T'Pol. Vulcan names are similar enough to be bloody confusing. It was specifically mentioned that she rejected a seat on the Federation Council.

Oh her!

Still, my idea remains valid. Member races have their own mechanics for choosing who goes to the Federation Council to vote in a democratic way. That's how I think it works.