Specialized Galaxy Primary Hulls

[Mikey]

I don't think the way an engine is timed dictates the valva placement, but I'm sure most modern engines are OHV.

[Deepcrush]

Remember how Tom wanted to add big fins to the back? He didn't even have the basic hull form finalized yet. The impression I got was that he had already come up with a few of the new systems, and maybe had a rough idea of others.

Was it really just two days, though? I don't recall. Even if he had two weeks, it still wouldn't be enough time to design it, let alone test and build it. The first one, anyways.

Two days IIRC. I could be wrong, I don't watch much Voy.

[Sionnach Glic]

Jesus this thread grew quickly.

Guys, I really don't know why you're trying to compare building a car now to building a shuttle in the 24th century. They're not at all similar. It'd be more like someone trying to build a fighter jet in the modern day. Could a pilot have some basic knowledge of aerodynamics and flight systems that would let him think up a general outline that would work? Sure. That knowledge comes with the job, and it's presumably the same for pilots in Trek. Does that mean they'd be able to design the majority of the craft and all the various electronics and systems? Nope.

Going back a couple of pages to Teaos' rebuttal.

Ahhh.. no. He was stated to have sat 1! paper in it in his early years. That was the whole point of him becoming the Doctors assistant, to highlight they had no one else better qualified than a first term bio student.

Tom's speciality would have been in other things, most likely something flight or mechanical related.

Seems I misremembered. Conceded on this point.

Weapons were covered by 7 and Tuvok, and its not hard to draw a design going "This is where the weapons will be"

And the specs of those weapons? And how they'll fit into the frame? And the power systems connecting to them? And the targetting systems? And how they link to the sensors? And how the controls run to them? And any cooling systems? Safety equipment? How all that stuff fits in and around everything else in the ship?

Sorry, but no. Tuvok and Seven would have figured all that stuff out. The only thing Tom is likely to have done is say "I'd like a gun somewhere here".

Electronics is something he seemed to have a rather good grasp on.

Knowing how to fix wiring problems =/= knowing how to properly design such things. There's a difference between a technician and an engineer.

As is power systems.

And this is based on....what?

He might not be able to build a warpcore for a shuttle, but he sure as hell would be able to work out the right sized core for it and leave it to someone else to sort out.

Which is exactly my point. All he'd have known is to say "I'd like a generator that puts out about X amount of power". How to install it, wire it up, install safety systems, etc, etc, etc would have been beyond him.

Fuel containment? Add 2 anti matter pods... check. Wow you really need 4 years of study for that.

And how are those pods wired up? How do they connect with the power core? What safety systems will you include? How are they fixed to it? How much fuel will it hold? How will you replenish that fuel?

Again, you're seriously underestimating how much work is involved in all of this. You can't just take various components, shove them all in and call it a day.
Do you think aircraft designers just go "we'll put a fuel tank here"? Or are there actualy a shitload of different decisions they need to make for it?

Nacelles, Tom: "We want this ship to go X fast, have Y agility and be Z sized. Well looks like we need the Binford 6100 Shuttle Nacelles!"

And how are those nacelles connected? And how do you house them? Are they to be armoured? How are the cooling systems installed? How...aw, screw it. I'm getting tired typing. I think everyone in this thread can see the point I'm making by now.

Designing a functioning spacecraft is not just as simple as saying "we'll take this warp core, this fuel tank, this engine, add them to this hull and we're done".

You seem to be working under the illusion Tom needs to know how to BUILD all this crap, no.

No, I've never said Tom needs to be able to build it. I said he needs to be able to design it for his quote to be correct.

He just needs to have a basic understanding of it and then think of a clever way to tie it all together, something a pilot would be good at.

This whole debate is over his comment that he had the thing mostly designed. Now unless he actualy does know how to do all the stuff I've listed, then he didn't design most of it. All he'd have done in that situation would be to draw a general outline of the ship (which, as Mikey pointed out, he didn't even have finalised while they were building it) and the general placing of the most important components.

Nelix ran and maintained his own ship, which would require a working knowledge of everything you just mentioned, Tom would obviously have far better knowledge than that hedgehog!

Neelix's ship was a dilapidated scow. Given that Neelix has been shown to know jack shit about engineering matters, it's far more likely he got his ship serviced at various outposts and stations. Much like modern plane-owners and pilots get their craft serviced at airports by trained proffessionals. And planes are vastly more simple than spacecraft.
Yeah, Tom would definitely have been smarter than Neelix. That doesn't mean he knows how to properly design a spacecraft.

You think car designers can build a Transmition? Or do they just know they different types out there and pick one they need and fit it into their design?

No, car designers don't have to know how to build a transmission. But they do have to know what type they'll need, where it will go, how other systems are connected to it, how it fits in and around the other components, etc, etc. You're seriously over-simplifying the whole concept of designing stuff. Why do you think it takes so long to become a trained engineer if it's that simple?

[Mikey]

Rochey - I used the car as an example of how knowledge of the workings of something don't necessarily translate into the ability to engineer one. The fact of the greater tech and complexity of a shuttle or starship only heightens that point.

You think car designers can build a Transmition? Or do they just know they different types out there and pick one they need and fit it into their design?

The engineers on a design team do need to be able to design a transmission. In two different models, even with the same model of transmission, there will be different gear spacing, ratios, torque ratings, etc.

[stitch626]

I didn't sleep well last night, and honestly can't remember why I was arguing, so points conceded on my part.

[Mikey]

Can't ask for fairer than that.

[Teaos]

You think car designers can build a Transmition? Or do they just know they different types out there and pick one they need and fit it into their design?

The engineers on a design team do need to be able to design a transmission. In two different models, even with the same model of transmission, there will be different gear spacing, ratios, torque ratings, etc.

Engineers, yes. But I'm refereing to the people coming up with the over all concept of the car, they don't need to know how everything works, they just need to know what it does and how it can be used in the car.

Just like Tom doesnt need to know how to build a flight control computer, he just needs to know what one is, how its used, and what sort he needs for his ship. Not exactly to much to ask from a seasoned pilot.

[Sionnach Glic]

Have you read my last post? I adressed that incorrect mindset quite thoroughly.

[Teaos]

Yeah I read it. Your wrong.

[McAvoy]

Would the saucer's shape remain the same? War field dynamics be altered for a different shape? I mean, what if you simply turn the saucer 90 degrees?

I would see colony/cargo/planetary evacuation saucers, 'battle' saucers, massive science suite saucers, shuttle/fighter carriers. I would make the whole Galaxy class much more appealing if it was interchangable like that. I would think the Nebula class be bit redundant in that role.

[stitch626]

Wow I got wiplash from that.
Turning the saucer like that may not be engineeringly feasible, but the shape wouldn't need to remain the same I guess.
Welcome, by the way.

[Atekimogus]

I think it's a popular theory here that the hullshape has something to do with the warpfield but I am not a huge fan of that theory.

First, I hate streamlined spaceships but if you see one I like to think that it is primarily a designer choice and not a technical necessity. Building a functional ship doesn't mean it shouldn't look pleasing to the eye and if you can do both - and since streamlined designs are popular -then why not?

Second, I always had the impression that the most important thing is not the shape of the hull but the shape of the warpfield/warpbubble and iirc there is no evidence that the former has something to do with the later.

Third, if - for example - the saucer shape has something to do with the warpfield I find it odd that they go from perfect circular (tos) to oval GCS style to oval sovereign style and back to oval GCS style (ENT-J).

And last but not least, if the hull would be a major warpfieldfactor than - logically - ships using more or less the same propulsion-system (like the klingons for example) should arrive at a very similar hull design since they travel in the same medium. Meaning all AQ races using warp nacelles to create a warpfield for FTL flight should look extremly similar which is clearly not the case.

If Tom Paris builds a cool looking streamlined ship I need no reason other than he wanted it to look cool, no need for unnecessary technobubble imho.

[Tsukiyumi]

...And last but not least, if the hull would be a major warpfieldfactor than - logically - ships using more or less the same propulsion-system (like the klingons for example) should arrive at a very similar hull design since they travel in the same medium. Meaning all AQ races using warp nacelles to create a warpfield for FTL flight should look extremly similar which is clearly not the case...

Excellent point.

[stitch626]

While there is canon information to suggest that hull shape has an effect on the warp field, the effect would be minor.

[Tyyr]

However there is another consideration, what's the goal? For instance the Federation could be trying to pack as much ship as they could into an efficient warp field. Efficiency could be the Federation's entire goal. Max speed with minimum engine and fuel. Other powers may not care about efficiency. They could be just fine with putting bigger warp cores in their ships and burning more anti-matter to get the same result.