Which ship could become the backbone of the Modern Starfleet

[Teaos]

Guess you've never looked up the definition of the word then have you...? My father had a hodrod... a 1962 Grand Prix 357 muscle car. That was purpose built for power...

Honeslty, no. I've never looked it up. I was under the impression a Hotrod was a upgraded, suped up old car, ala Tim Taylors hotrod in the show Home Improvement.

As to the rest of it, I guess its just a matter of opinion, I have no issue letting old ships age gracefully and be demoted to more menial jobs while being replaced with newer ships.

[Mikey]

As to the rest of it, I guess its just a matter of opinion, I have no issue letting old ships age gracefully and be demoted to more menial jobs while being replaced with newer ships.

I agree in principle, but it's a matter of degrees. Except for a DW-type scenario, in which you have to rush every piece you have to the front, I think it's a question of the type of mods necessary. If you could bring a Nebula just about up to the SOTA by a relatively simple and resource-cheap refit, why not do it instead of relegating an otherwise valuable ship to being a trash barge?

[Teaos]

I never had an issue with simple upgrades. Just the strip it clean and replace half the systems upgrades that would be needed to upgrade phaser arrays ect.

[Mikey]

Agreed, then. If the necessary refit to keep the ship up-to-date approaches over half the cost in time and resources of a brandy-new ship, let the old one pull coast guard duty.

[Deepcrush]

I'd expect the two phaser arrays to be far less then half the total cost of the Neb. Plus the upgrade isn't really necessary so much as just useful. If a ship comes in for R&R or resupply then you strap on the new Weapons Pod and change out the two phasers. Quick and clean and easy.

[Mikey]

True. I was speaking in generalities; in a case like that, I'd say it's a no-brainer to go ahead and introduce a rolling upfit schedule.

[Deepcrush]

Sorry, I just saw this one. I wasn't ignoring you.

Honeslty, no. I've never looked it up. I was under the impression a Hotrod was a upgraded, suped up old car, ala Tim Taylors hotrod in the show Home Improvement.

A hotrod is a uber-up car where you have pushed everything to its max. The best of everything you can fit. The Sov fits this.

As to the rest of it, I guess its just a matter of opinion, I have no issue letting old ships age gracefully and be demoted to more menial jobs while being replaced with newer ships.

The Neb really isn't at the point of being aged out. They've got a long time to go before that point. Besides, a ship being the backbone of the fleet is hardly a menial task.

[Captain Seafort]

With most of the work being internal there isn't any reason the ship couldn't remain on station while committing the upgrades.

With only 1/10th of the ships weapons down for the refit and no other systems being impacted what would make this a 'major' dockyard job?

How exactly do you intend to get to the internal systems without going through the hull? You'd have to remove the entire phaser array, along with an unknown area of the hull surrounding it, and replace it with the new array. Quite apart from the fact that this would leave a damn great hole in the ship, the new array wouldn't be delivered as individual components - it would take far too long to assemble. Instead they're be prefabricated and moved into position as individual segments, something like ten metres on a side. It's possible that such work could be carried out in interstellar space, with shuttles, but why would you do that, when the ship would still be sat around helpless and it would take longer due to the bottleneck of getting the components out of the hangar, and the lack of specialist personnel.

On top of this, it isn't just a matter of replacing the array itself - everything behind it, including the basic hull frame and the entire power train from the array to the warp core would have to be replaced as well. Both those system would have been designed for type-X phasers, the former would likely have problems with the greater recoil of more powerful weapons and the latter wouldn't be able to carry the sort of power necessary to make more powerful weapons worthwhile. Again, neither the power systems nor the hull frames are small objects - you couldn't replace them on the fly, but would have to remove huge sections of the out hull, along with whatever interior bulkheads were in the way, to get the old components out and the new ones in. You would, in effect, have to dismantle the entire ship and rebuild it to carry the new weapons.

Given the amount of work we're talking about here, your two best options are to either rebuild the entire ship as was done with the Connie, or just leave it as was as Teaos suggests, updating the torpedo pod to QTs if extra firepower is necessary.

[Deepcrush]

How exactly do you intend to get to the internal systems without going through the hull? You'd have to remove the entire phaser array, along with an unknown area of the hull surrounding it, and replace it with the new array. Quite apart from the fact that this would leave a damn great hole in the ship, the new array wouldn't be delivered as individual components - it would take far too long to assemble. Instead they're be prefabricated and moved into position as individual segments, something like ten metres on a side. It's possible that such work could be carried out in interstellar space, with shuttles, but why would you do that, when the ship would still be sat around helpless and it would take longer due to the bottleneck of getting the components out of the hangar, and the lack of specialist personnel.

First I'd take out the interal systems from the inside, being internal and all. Second, as I said before. We've seen other ships repair/replace great sections of hull and equipment on the run. Let alone at a local starbase for the external work and then let the crew finish the internal job on the move. Without a reason to say the ship would be helpless, its just silly to bash up a big story about ripping the whole ship apart...

On top of this, it isn't just a matter of replacing the array itself - everything behind it, including the basic hull frame and the entire power train from the array to the warp core would have to be replaced as well. Both those system would have been designed for type-X phasers, the former would likely have problems with the greater recoil of more powerful weapons and the latter wouldn't be able to carry the sort of power necessary to make more powerful weapons worthwhile. Again, neither the power systems nor the hull frames are small objects - you couldn't replace them on the fly, but would have to remove huge sections of the out hull, along with whatever interior bulkheads were in the way, to get the old components out and the new ones in. You would, in effect, have to dismantle the entire ship and rebuild it to carry the new weapons.

Evidence for this joke of yours please?

Given the amount of work we're talking about here, your two best options are to either rebuild the entire ship as was done with the Connie, or just leave it as was as Teaos suggests, updating the torpedo pod to QTs if extra firepower is necessary.

There is no "we're" here. The only people talking about any huge amount of work is you. Everyone else is talking about minor upgrades to be made whenever the chance allows.

[Captain Seafort]

First I'd take out the interal systems from the inside, being internal and all.Second, as I said before. We've seen other ships repair/replace great sections of hull and equipment on the run. Let alone at a local starbase for the external work and then let the crew finish the internal job on the move. Without a reason to say the ship would be helpless, its just silly to bash up a big story about ripping the whole ship apart...

The closest we've seen to a refit on the scale you're suggesting (replacing the two main phaser arrays) is in Enterprise, where they built their own phase cannon, and then repaired the ship on the run in the Expanse. In the first case the power feeds and bracing (the really serious work) were already in place, and the guns themselves were apparently modular. In the latter case they weren't replacing huge components - simply repairing existing ones that broke (presumably drawing from a stock of spare parts), and welding a few plates over the holes. With the rights skills and a toolbox, a mechanic could replace a car's spark plugs on the side of the road. They wouldn't be able to replace the entire engine.

Evidence for this joke of yours please?

You mean the idea that if you want to feed more power you need bigger pipes? Or that bigger guns mean more recoil?

[Deepcrush]

The closest we've seen to a refit on the scale you're suggesting (replacing the two main phaser arrays) is in Enterprise, where they built their own phase cannon, and then repaired the ship on the run in the Expanse. In the first case the power feeds and bracing (the really serious work) were already in place, and the guns themselves were apparently modular. In the latter case they weren't replacing huge components - simply repairing existing ones that broke (presumably drawing from a stock of spare parts), and welding a few plates over the holes. With the rights skills and a toolbox, a mechanic could replace a car's spark plugs on the side of the road. They wouldn't be able to replace the entire engine.

You're overshooting and bullshitting yet again. No one said replace the whole engine. Just a part of it.

You mean the idea that if you want to feed more power you need bigger pipes? Or that bigger guns mean more recoil?

Right, seafort strikes again with the misquote... very cute. Then again that is SOP for you whenever you have nothing to reply with.

You're statement said that in order to replace two phasers you have to rebuild the whole ship. I asked for evidence since we've seen ships do this very thing and never have to commit to such a rebuild.

[Captain Seafort]

You're overshooting and bullshitting yet again. No one said replace the whole engine. Just a part of it.

Fair enough - how about the gearbox then? How exactly to you intend to get to it with dismantling agood chunk of the car?

Right, seafort strikes again with the misquote...

Where have I misquoted you? I pointed out that you need bigger pipes to carry more power, and a stronger frame to withstand the recoil, and you responded with the exact phase I quoted. Nothing more, nothing less.

You're statement said that in order to replace two phasers you have to rebuild the whole ship.

Two phasers that wrap completely around the saucer, and are the most powerful weapons on the ship.

we've seen ships do this very thing

Where?

[Deepcrush]

Fair enough - how about the gearbox then? How exactly to you intend to get to it with dismantling agood chunk of the car?

You're not replacing the gearbox. You're replacing one tire and wheel size for another. The external work is simple. The internal work takes some twiks but won't stop you from driving.

Where have I misquoted you? I pointed out that you need bigger pipes to carry more power, and a stronger frame to withstand the recoil, and you responded with the exact phase I quoted. Nothing more, nothing less.

How much recoil is there? How much work is needed to replace "pipes"? Why do you need a stronger frame when there's nothing wrong with the current frame?

Two phasers that wrap completely around the saucer, and are the most powerful weapons on the ship.

Wrapping around an area that's open and with plenty of internal space to work is a good thing. As to being the most powerful weapons on the ship? Isn't every phaser on the ship a type X? The saucer phasers have the best arc. THats all.

Where?

Voy - under took massive repair work without a support base.
Defiant - increased its phaser power and added armor.
GCS - added extra phasers over the WNs without any known trouble and its not like they can just run a pipe through another large pipe.

[Praeothmin]

You're replacing one tire and wheel size for another.

Not exactly.
What we're describing is like replacing the brakes for a new type of brakes.
You need to replace the housing, all the brake parts, and you can't do that in the middle of nowhere without the appropriate parts and tools, and a shop, or spacedock...
I do agree that with the proper installations, the job might take a few weeks, if you put a lot of people on it, but I also agree with the others saying that the ship needs be in dock for these upgrades.
In the case of Voyager, it mostly consisted of replacing existing damaged parts with new working ones.
No redesign, or anything else, except for the modifications in "Endgame", which were brought from a future Janeway...

[Mikey]

In VOY, they routinely incorporated completely alien technology into the ship, without so much as reading an owner's manual.