More Sins of the Father questions

[Captain Picard's Hair]

It's on now: the start of a lot of recurring political intrigue involving the Klingons.

I found it a bit odd (the wording) when Picard referred to Quo'nos as the "First CIty of the Klingon Imperial Empire" - though that's a minor curiosity.

The color of Quo'nos was a bit odd, though this was often the case in TNG

But, why is Picard holding a private chat with Worf within earshot of Duras tipping him off to the fact that Kahlest is alive? They don't teach common sense in the Academy? For that matter, it occurred to me a few minutes earlier that ordinary communicator communications in TNG and beyond are a bit insecure as they're readily audible to anyone close by.

[Captain Picard's Hair]

Though, it was also a ballsy showing by Picard to risk breaking the alliance with the Klingons to protect his officer.

[Sionnach Glic]

Imperial Empire

Nice redundancy.

But, why is Picard holding a private chat with Worf within earshot of Duras tipping him off to the fact that Kahlest is alive? They don't teach common sense in the Academy? For that matter, it occurred to me a few minutes earlier that ordinary communicator communications in TNG and beyond are a bit insecure as they're readily audible to anyone close by.

No idea, but I'm sure stupidity is a factor there.

Though, it was also a ballsy showing by Picard to risk breaking the alliance with the Klingons to protect his officer.

I didn't like that. What right does Picard have to embroil the UFP in a war over such a minor matter?

[Captain Picard's Hair]

Though, it was also a ballsy showing by Picard to risk breaking the alliance with the Klingons to protect his officer.

I didn't like that. What right does Picard have to embroil the UFP in a war over such a minor matter?

Oh, all I'm saying is that it took some stones to stand before the Chancellor of the Klingon High Council and say that. It certainly should take very big things to start wars (though it hasn't always) - the alliance between the Federation and Klingons did always seem a bit shaky to begin with. It's also true that the Klingons didn't handle this well: the entire Duras affair reeks of what we would consider dishonor. It would not have been just in any sense for the Klingons to have killed Worf and Kurn knowing full well that both were innocent. Picard is certainly right to the extent that he demands justice and his devotion to his officer is admirable, and it is he who is morally superior to the Klingons here. Whatever Picard would have done would have only been the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back; even Worf's own noble gesture that took Picard off the hook lasted all of what, a year? Yes, Picard is known for letting his principles, whether well guided or not, get the better of him, but in this case the Klingons themselves were much more in the wrong (even by their own standards on the Duras side).

Obviously, this is just speculation, but can we even be sure that the executions of Worf and Kurn would have prevented anything? The High Council was a powder keg, and K'mpec (regarded later as the only one holding the Empire together) was already growing old before he was poisoned.

[Captain Seafort]

Oh, all I'm saying is that it took some stones to stand before the Chancellor of the Klingon High Council and say that.

There are cases when an act can be both stupid and courageous. This is not one of them.

It's also true that the Klingons didn't handle this well: the entire Duras affair reeks of what we would consider dishonor. It would not have been just in any sense for the Klingons to have killed Worf and Kurn knowing full well that both were innocent.

Since when have the Klingons, as an entity, displayed anything resembling their vaunted honour? They've always been just as Machiavellian as the Romulans, if not more so.

Picard is certainly right to the extent that he demands justice and his devotion to his officer is admirable, and it is he who is morally superior to the Klingons here.

Is he? Risking a war with the Federation's closest allies over a single man? A war that there's a good chance the Feds would loose, and one that would, either way, cost millions or billions of lives.

[Sonic Glitch]

Picard is certainly right to the extent that he demands justice and his devotion to his officer is admirable, and it is he who is morally superior to the Klingons here.

Is he? Risking a war with the Federation's closest allies over a single man? A war that there's a good chance the Feds would loose, and one that would, either way, cost millions or billions of lives.

Yes. Of course, as this is a matter of personal choice and opinion, like the Insurrection debate there will be very little we can say to each other to change the others mind.

[Captain Seafort]

Yes. Of course, as this is a matter of personal choice and opinion, like the Insurrection debate there will be very little we can say to each other to change the others mind.

I would say that this is an entirely different kettle of fish to the Insurrection debate. That one's about the morality of moving a few hundred versus improved health and lifespan for billions. This one is about a war that will directly kill millions or billions, and bring suffering to far more, for one man. Fortunately for Picard things worked out alright, but if his pushing had brought about war, those deaths would have been on his head.

[Sonic Glitch]

Yes. Of course, as this is a matter of personal choice and opinion, like the Insurrection debate there will be very little we can say to each other to change the others mind.

I would say that this is an entirely different kettle of fish to the Insurrection debate. That one's about the morality of moving a few hundred versus improved health and lifespan for billions. This one is about a war that will directly kill millions or billions, and bring suffering to far more, for one man. Fortunately for Picard things worked out alright, but if his pushing had brought about war, those deaths would have been on his head.

I really hope TNG gets back on the air around here quickly so I can watch it again. Is this the episode where the High Council ends up shunning Worf and stripping him of his honor? (checks the handy episode database) yes it is, unfortunately there aren't enough details for me to recall if there was a threat of war anyway. Are you refering to a war between the Federation and Klingons or a Klingon Civil War? I think a KCW was inevitable and K'mpec only managed to delay it so the threat was there regardless of what Picard did.

[Mikey]

I'm with Seafort on this one. Yes, Picard showed admirable loyalty to his man, as well as a brass pair; but from the Klingon POV there is no clear way to separate Picard from his role as a representative of the UFP - as such, he should have certainly stayed away from any matter which would have embroiled the UFP.

As to the Klingons acting with dishonor - this is one of many examples of Klingons paying lip service to their vaunted honor, and acting toward their own ends regardless.

[Tsukiyumi]

At least the Romulans don't go around boasting about having honor; you just know they're sneaky buggers.

[Captain Picard's Hair]

There are cases when an act can be both stupid and courageous. This is not one of them.

I assume you mean this is one of them?

Since when have the Klingons, as an entity, displayed anything resembling their vaunted honour? They've always been just as Machiavellian as the Romulans, if not more so.

I never really said they had ever acted honorably, but you're right of course.

Is he? Risking a war with the Federation's closest allies over a single man? A war that there's a good chance the Feds would loose, and one that would, either way, cost millions or billions of lives.

Ah, well, you do have a point about this. My intent had been to contrast Picard with the less honorable Klingons, but I suppose then Picard was being foolhardy, if his motivations were better than those of the Klingons. When it comes down to it, two unjustly lost lives (counting Kurn) are better than two billion (or however many), if still deplorable. This was a lesser of two evils choice, if there ever was one. While my intent was to show that Picard's motivation or justification was more right than the Klingons, the (direct) consequences of his act could have been a lot worse too. The Klingons were bound to go off eventually, but that should demand only more caution.

[Captain Seafort]

I assume you mean this is one of them?

No I do not. I mean that Picard was simply being an idiot if he decided to push too hard with the Klingons. An example of stupidity and courage combined would be H Jones - Lt Colonels are meant to control battles, not take on machine guns single-handed, but there's no question that his action took a lot of guts.

Picard's action indicates that he hadn't considered the consequences, and was simply being holier-than-thou as usual. The two individuals who came out of that best were Worf, for backing down rather than trigger a civil war, and Kempec who put the good of the Empire above his own evident distaste of the whole matter.

While my intent was to show that Picard's motivation or justification was more right than the Klingons, the (direct) consequences of his act could have been a lot worse too. The Klingons were bound to go off eventually, but that should demand only more caution.

Picard was looking at the immidiate issue of whether the Klingon condemnation of Mogh was justified based on Mogh's actions. He never stopped to consider the implications of revealing the truth, which would have been catastrophic.

[Mikey]

Picard was looking at the immidiate issue of whether the Klingon condemnation of Mogh was justified based on Mogh's actions. He never stopped to consider the implications of revealing the truth, which would have been catastrophic.

Here's where I differ. I believe Picard did consider that - just that his personal righteousness overcame his consideration of the welfare of the UFP. He does have a bad case of paragon syndrome.

[Captain Seafort]

Here's where I differ. I believe Picard did consider that - just that his personal righteousness overcame his consideration of the welfare of the UFP. He does have a bad case of paragon syndrome.

That's a distinct possibility - I was simply trying to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[Captain Picard's Hair]

Picard was looking at the immidiate issue of whether the Klingon condemnation of Mogh was justified based on Mogh's actions. He never stopped to consider the implications of revealing the truth, which would have been catastrophic.

Never catch a proud giant in it's own lies. Ironically, it was necessary to cover this up to protect the Klingons from their own dishonor - K'mpec's distaste of the matter, indeed! Obeying the rules of Honor would have avoided all this - but that matter (of Klingon "honor") has been long discussed (and right now we ourselves are little better). A very sad truth.