YOU are involved in the events of INS

[Deepcrush]

Fair enough. Have you got a link to the details - I think Wiki has summaries of most USSC judgements.

Crap... now I've got to go back to high school social studies.

Really though, I'll have to go back and find it all. Long time between then and now.

Prove it.

You need me to prove for you that one independent nation invading another is illegal???

If you can't figure that on your own then you're beyond help.

Correct. Do you have any evidence that this was illegal?

See above.

1) Prove that the Ba'ku had rights under Federation law.

The PD is in place to provide and protect such rights. Again, if you've never seen the show then I could understand you're not getting it. But I was of the view you had seen at least one ep of ST somewhere along the line. Either the Baku have rights under UFP law in the form of representation in the UFP council or they are protected by the rules of the PD. Seeing how the Baku never even knew about the UFP I doubt its the former.

2) They would have been compensated with the provision of a new planet, and the costs of relocating the population would have been borne by the UFP.

Doesn't matter. You're not getting how reality works. Force is still applied no matter how you try to ignore it. The problem is that no one asked. This is what most everyone here continues to ignore. Any forced relocation of a nation by another nation is illegal. If you want to say otherwise then you'll have to run off to lala land.

Yes - the fact that the Ba'ku proved singularly unsympathetic to the idea of moving after the Fed plan was revealed.

REVEALED is the keyword. I wouldn't give a damn about a people that were planning to steal my home. Cut the life span of my family. Destory my whole world. All of this for THEIR profit and all of it without ever asking me just to move. I've seen men killed over shacks surrounded by sand. Think about how someone might feel about the UFP stealing paradise.

I'd have no problem killing anyone who tried to take my home from me just because it was good for them. Though, by your frame of thought the arabs should be happy enough with us moving them around for oil. The Scots should love England dispite the want of farm land. And China should have the right to invade any nation on earth since their population is larger then anyone elses. Again this is something that may work in your mind but doesn't work in the real world. People tend to care about their homes and families. If you apply risk (real or threatened) to those things then you invite response.

With regards to the Briar Patch planet, the facts that Dougherty's and Picard's conversation heavily implied that the planet was under UFP jurisdiction, and the only legal objection Picard raised was the PD.

Hitler believed that Europe belonged to him, guess England should have followed his laws and surrendered right?

[Captain Seafort]

You need me to prove for you that one independent nation invading another is illegal???

I want evidence that:

a) the Ba'ku are considered an independent nation under the relevent laws.

b) if so, that their removal constituted a crime either under Federation law, or any treaty the Federation was a signatory to.

The UN Charter, the Hague Conventions, and the Westphalian Convention apply to the sovereignty of Earthly nations. I want evidence that the interstellar equivalent exist.

The PD is in place to provide and protect such rights.

And Dougherty clearly stated that the PD didn't apply to the Ba'ku.

Doesn't matter. You're not getting how reality works.

You claimed that this wasn't compulsory purchase, but theft. I pointed out that the Ba'ku received a new planet in compensation, disproving that claim.

REVEALED is the keyword. I wouldn't give a damn about a people that were planning to steal my home.

Even, as Rochey posited, if your house were sitting on a deposit of rare ore that could vastly improve the lives of millions of people? If so, you're just as much as selfish c**t as the Ba'ku.

I'd have no problem killing anyone who tried to take my home from me just because it was good for them.

You have much the same attitude to anyone you meet if you're in a grumpy mood, so forgive me if this doesn't particularly say much.

Hitler believed that Europe belonged to him, guess England should have followed his laws and surrendered right?

Slight difference with this, and the other examples you raised - Europe wasn't within the borders of the Reich, nor was there any German legislation stating such.

[Mikey]

Sorry I've been away for a while - death in the family. I'd just like to address something that jumped out at me.

Yes - the fact that the Ba'ku proved singularly unsympathetic to the idea of moving after the Fed plan was revealed.

I think it stretches credibility to assume that the Ba'ku reaction wouldn't be colored by the fact that the UFP had, just prior, attempted to steal the planet and kidnap the population. Even if they would have been sympathetic to the UFP's cause, I'd say we'd be hard-pressed to read anything at all into the fact that they weren't sympathetic to the UFP itself after that attempt.

[Captain Seafort]

Sorry I've been away for a while - death in the family.

My condolences.

I think it stretches credibility to assume that the Ba'ku reaction wouldn't be colored by the fact that the UFP had, just prior, attempted to steal the planet and kidnap the population. Even if they would have been sympathetic to the UFP's cause, I'd say we'd be hard-pressed to read anything at all into the fact that they weren't sympathetic to the UFP itself after that attempt.

True, but their response wasn't one of "why didn't you ask", but of bafflement - the attitude of "this is ours", without even considering the benefit of others.

[Mikey]

My condolences.

Thank you.

True, but their response wasn't one of "why didn't you ask", but of bafflement - the attitude of "this is ours", without even considering the benefit of others.

I see your point, but I just can't see the response after an attempted mass kidnapping being analogous to the response before.

[Deepcrush]

I'm going to drop it as this so that people on here can pretend to carry the IQ gene. Either the Baku are part of the UFP and should have some kind of voice in the council. OR... The Baku are not part of the UFP and it was in fact an invasion. If the action were legal then there would have been no reason to hide it. Seeing how they couldn't act out in the open supports it was in fact illegal.

[Sionnach Glic]

That it was done shadily doesn't necessarily mean that it was illegal. Many governments do stuff that they keep very quiet, so why not the UFP? Obviously, this wouldn't look too good on the PR front, regardless of the legality of it. Ergo, the plan to quietly relocate the Ba'ku and pretend the planet had never been habited before.

Also, Dougherty was acting on the orders of the Council, IIRC.

[Deepcrush]

Many goverments do things they know are illegal and so keep things quiet. Saying that someone gave the order doesn't make it legal. Seeing how quickly everyone backed down when Riker told them that the E-E crew now know about it. Maybe there's a jump between British and American ideals. In the US, government agents coming by force to take someones home normally ends in gun shots. That or I should just start thinking of the british like I do the french.

[Sionnach Glic]

Can you prove it was illegal? Dougherty's statements seemed to imply it was legal.

[Deepcrush]

Can you prove that it was? The whole debate has been people running in a circle jerk. Some how wanting an invasion to be legal. Dougherty's statement was for Picard's ears. Is there anyway to know that he wasn't lying? That the council didn't back down because they knew they were in the wrong and they couldn't risk it getting out that the UFP was now taking part in illegal land grabs.

If they Baku were a part of the UFP then it would have been legal. But, where did the UFP get the rights to take anyone's planet just because they want too? Where's the law for that?

[Sionnach Glic]

Dougherty stated that because Ba'ku was in UFP space it was their territory and only the PD prevented them doing anything to the locals. Presumably Picard would know this himself, and thus lying to him about it would be stupid. Therefore, it was probably legal in the eyes of the UFP.

[Deepcrush]

But how could the Baku belong to the UFP if they had been there before? Plus Picard had no trouble turning around and fighting against Dougherty. I see Dougherty's line as a bluff against Picard. Hoping that Picard would buy into that the whole matter was legal. We've seen Picard and company let whole races die just because it was the law. It makes no sense that he wouldn't fight for them yet turn against UFP for just 600 people who weren't even in mortal danger.

There's just nothing to prove the matter was legal. Until otherwise, its an invasion. I don't give a shit how people try to pretend otherwise.

[Mark]

This is really an out there kind of idea. Why not ask the Baku if they would mine if they mined the radiation?

[Tsukiyumi]

This is really an out there kind of idea. Why not ask the Baku if they would mine if they mined the radiation?

I asked that several pages ago.

[Deepcrush]

Because then they most likely would have said yes and you wouldn't have a movie. Whenever you have a ST movie, you have to have something who's just so fucking stupid that things just start falling apart from moment one. Then you have a super bad guy. Then you have the heroes come in. Then you have technobabbleoftheday. Then you have good guys win at the last moment and make a stuck up exit that makes them look like they've just sat on flag poles.

Very basic ST movie making protocols.