How did the Borg come about?

Jim · Post by **Jim** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:12 pm

Deepcrush wrote:The centari were good writing. A falling empire fighting to outlast those whom it once controled.

The new klingons were mixed good and bad writing. They could have been great if they had showed some internal conflict over everything.

Any time I got annoyed with the petty actions of some of the Klingons, all they had to do was throw Robert O'Reilly as Gowron on the screen and all was forgiven. The way he acted was great! The big eye buldging and over the top acting... A+

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:14 pm

He was awsome wasn't he! Not since kang has there been such a great klingon!

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:18 pm

Jim wrote:Excuse is just another word for explination. If people do not want to hear explinations they call them excuses. I could just as easily say that you holding to the "original" version of the Borg is an excuse for not "accepting" the later version. Maybe the early versions of the Borg/Klingons was the bad writing... lack of forethought...

Anyway... As I said, the Borg queen appeard in TNG format before she did Voyager.

I accept that Voyager is canon - that doesn't mean I have to like it or pretend that the Borg were always like that OOU. B&B fucked up, and as a result everyone else hss to jump through hoops to reconcile their crap with decent Trek.

Jim · Post by **Jim** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:20 pm

Deepcrush wrote:He was awsome wasn't he! Not since kang has there been such a great klingon!

I actually think some of the best actors in the ST universe showed up as Klingons.

Babylon 5 struck absolute gold with Andreas Katsulas, Peter Jurasik and Stephen Furst. Some other actors did a good job on B5, but those three were gods amongst men in that show, in ANY SF show.

Jim · Post by **Jim** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:32 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:I accept that Voyager is canon.

I stopped caring about what was "canon" when Lucas decided to completely destroy the universe that 100 Star Wars novels had created with Lucas' (or at least the company's) okay. I accepted that it was his baby and he could do whatever the F he wanted with it. (ps... talk about bad writing and even worse acting... youch!).

I definately prefer that something canon stays canon, but I no longer worry about the little stuff. If you nickle and dime oo much it destroys the entertainment value for me.

Something like having a Borg Queen as a central unit was fine for me as I found it fitting that the Borg be like ants or bees.

Boba Feit being a clone, and the Stormtroopers all being clones of Feit... That was a bit tougher to take.

Post by **Mikey** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:50 pm

ChakatBlackstar wrote:True, but in Q Who they may not have recognized the 'central plexes' as a nerve center.

Simply using the term "plexus" means that they DID recognize it as a nerve center - that's the definition of the word "plexus."

Jim wrote:I could just as easily say that you holding to the "original" version of the Borg is an excuse for not "accepting" the later version.

The only problem with that argument is that one came first in RL.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:09 pm

Something like having a Borg Queen as a central unit was fine for me as I found it fitting that the Borg be like ants or bees.

It doesn't fit with the way the Borg were originaly introduced.
At first, they were completely alien. No leaders, no VIPs, no weak points, no individualism. The race as a whole just went constantly onwards, seeking to assimilate everything without any real reason.
The very existance of the Queen is completely against all of that.

Post by **Mikey** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:28 pm

Exactly. The whole idea of the Borg was to be completely "alien" - that is, hard to understand in human concepts. Adding components to make them easier to fit into human thinking - like a central leadership, insect analogies, small group dynamics, individualism, morality - simply waters down that original premise.

The Borg were that much scarier at first, not only because we were so helpless in comparison, but because they wholly defied our understanding. They were the "big bad," but they weren't exactly evil; rather, they were amoral in a way that was very difficult to visualize.

Jim · Post by **Jim** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:40 pm

Mikey wrote:
Jim wrote:I could just as easily say that you holding to the "original" version of the Borg is an excuse for not "accepting" the later version.
The only problem with that argument is that one came first in RL.

Using that, then no character (etc) could ever develop past the rigid paramaters set in it original appearance.

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:45 pm

Black/white fallacy - this isn't expanding on a characterisation, it's completely changing it. As if you established that a character was teetotal and then had him getting bladdered on a regular basis with no explanation for the change.

Post by **Mikey** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:46 pm

Jim wrote:Using that, then no character (etc) could ever develop past the rigid paramaters set in it original appearance.

Absolutely incorrect. One can always add information, details, etc., without actually contradicting what was already laid down. It's quite simple, really. That's my big bugbear about Enterprise - there is no consideration for previously established information.

Tiberius · Post by **Tiberius** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:09 pm

Rochey wrote:
Something like having a Borg Queen as a central unit was fine for me as I found it fitting that the Borg be like ants or bees.
It doesn't fit with the way the Borg were originaly introduced.
At first, they were completely alien. No leaders, no VIPs, no weak points, no individualism. The race as a whole just went constantly onwards, seeking to assimilate everything without any real reason.
The very existance of the Queen is completely against all of that.

My take on the Borg is that the entire collective is one giant mind, which is still pretty alien, and also explains how the Queen can exist without going against the Borg as they were originally presented.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:12 pm

I think i said it once before but i feel the need to say it once again. I try to forget most things from ent as it tends to cause me pain trying to understand it.

Jim · Post by **Jim** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:13 pm

Mikey wrote:
Jim wrote:Using that, then no character (etc) could ever develop past the rigid paramaters set in it original appearance.
Absolutely incorrect. One can always add information, details, etc., without actually contradicting what was already laid down. It's quite simple, really. That's my big bugbear about Enterprise - there is no consideration for previously established information.

Frankly, it was kind of stupid to do a series back in time like that to begin with. A movie maybe... but a series... no. Everyone know where the thread of "history" end up so it gets too tricky and relative pointless. Everyone knows the Romulans will be bad, etc etc etc...

Jim · Post by **Jim** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:14 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:Black/white fallacy - this isn't expanding on a characterisation, it's completely changing it. As if you established that a character was teetotal and then had him getting bladdered on a regular basis with no explanation for the change.

I suppose I just never considered one or two Borg cubes enough to set their entire race in stone.