Klingons: Honor Optional?

[Deepcrush]

But by then they had driven it so deep into their own culture that they were stuck with it.

[Teaos]

Its a cool theory.

[Chris Propst]

I think it was the events of STVI that changed the Klingons so harshly. They went overnight from being a superpower to bump in the road. The SF even called that they could defeat the KDF without doubt since so many resources of the KE were being moved to save their home world. I try to think of the changes that could warp a culture so quickly.

Maybe HONOR was their way of keeping together through what must have been 50 years of pure hell. They needed at least that much time to rebuild their empire and keep from falling into civil war. Honor became their escape and their bonding. Honor doesn't need money or love or anything from anyone else. Honor is just one person doing what they think is right. Reliving grand stories from their history, treating them like they were true. Talking about how everyone must die for the glory of the empire.

A very interesting theory. It sort of suggests that their only way to keep above water in the early 24th century was by tagging onto this idea that eventually kind of got them screwed again in the late 24th century.

While close, I don't picture the KE falling to the RSE. The RSE has never wanted open war with the KE, and from what we've seen wouldn't be able to win anyhow. The RSE is in as much trouble if not more then the KE. They aren't expanding, in fact that was one of the things that brought them out of hiding was how much everyone else was growing around them. That and the Borg attacks. Even if the RSE tried to expand, attacking the KE would draw in the UFP. This would only get the RSE a hard curbstomp before sending them home crying.

Hadn't really thought of some of those other factors. I guess with the Romulans you have to consider their several decades of isolation and the fact that they're apparently sort of a pariah state. It's for reasons like this that I think they should go back to the 24th century, at least to address some of these interesting questions.

[Deepcrush]

A very interesting theory. It sort of suggests that their only way to keep above water in the early 24th century was by tagging onto this idea that eventually kind of got them screwed again in the late 24th century.

It wasn't their only way, but it was the 'easy' way. Klingons already had a great deal of pride and turning that to Honor which could be added to almost like money... What better way to stock pride then when you have a system that allows you to brag about what you've done and forces others to admit it.

Hadn't really thought of some of those other factors. I guess with the Romulans you have to consider their several decades of isolation and the fact that they're apparently sort of a pariah state. It's for reasons like this that I think they should go back to the 24th century, at least to address some of these interesting questions.

When it comes to nations of any size, there are always reasons within reasons. The RSE is in a tricky spot, the UFP could walk over them but doesn't care too. The KE used to be able to stomp them but losses in the DW may have changed that. The KE however is right back where it was at the end of STVI. They are going to spend the next 10 or 20 years rebuilding. Maybe Martok and his more open form of rule will change the Empire for the best. Or, the people won't be able to change again so soon and we'll see an even greater civil war.

[Reliant121]

Personally, I kinda attribute the honour changes to the Praxis incident. Think about it. A comfortable, and clever society is literally blown to pieces by one of its vital facilities going up in smoke. Spock even said the KE had 50 years of life left. Something damned major has to happen to cause an empire that has stood for centuries, if not longer, to just collapse in a comparatively meagre amount of time.
I reckon the klingon populace saw the Praxis incident a blunder on the hands of the government. The whole situation and how it was handled may not have been what the klingon people wanted. So the air of rebellion/revolution and disillusion was beginning to Creep into the cities of Qo'nos. The government, or specifically a chancellor of the government needed to do something to win back the peoples vote. Honour had traditionally been a rather strong part of the culture, even if the TOS klingons were not that versed in it. The stories of Kahless were millennia old; simply abandoned by the TOS klingons. So a chancellor, be it K'mpec or another before him, i dont know; Grasped onto the honour band wagon and used it to win back the peoples favour. But it went further. Soon the Klingon population was indoctrinating itself in the old ways, and probably taking it further than the original honour bound Klingons originally intended. I think that K'mpec or his predecessor saw the weakness that Azetbur had, the population not having faith in her, and used honour as a way of exploiting it, removing Azetbur from the throne of the Chancellor.

[Sionnach Glic]

Not a bad theory.

[Mikey]

I saw something last night which made me think of this. In the Japanese film Heaven and Earth, a daimyo who is represented as following all the forms of bushido has his soldiery challenged by a female warrior on horseback. His men respond with a few catcalls, and the female is recalled by her own daimyo. As she looks up at the lord, he takes up a flintlock and shoots her off of her horse.

What it illustrates is that there's honor, and then there's honor. He was an honorable man - he just saw more honor in being the instrument of death for his master's enemies, rather than in individual combat. It may be pragmatic or a justification, but it can be said to serve the forms.

[Mark]

Interesting

[Sionnach Glic]

Aye, the concept of honour isn't just one strict thing.

[m52nickerson]

Klingon honor seem to be:

1. Don't embarrassed, betray, weaken the Empire by showing cowardice or inferiority.

2. Don't embarrassed, betray, weaken your family by showing cowardice or inferiority

3. Don't embarrassed, betray, weaken your self by showing cowardice or inferiority

[Tsukiyumi]

Of course, then it still comes down to what the individual's concept of cowardice or inferiority is.

[m52nickerson]

Of course, then it still comes down to what the individual's concept of cowardice or inferiority is.

Exactly, if I knife someone in the back and no one knows, I don't embarrass the the Empire or my family, because no one knows.

[Tsukiyumi]

Exactly.

[Captain Picard's Hair]

The definition of honor may not be easy to pin down, but the definition of dishonor is easy (for the most part, losing in battle, being weak, etc). Ergo, everything that doesn't bring dishonor can be considered honorable.

[Sionnach Glic]

I believe in Way of the Warrior, Worf gave a definition of Klingon honour that was pretty much "whatever works for the greater good".