WTF? Dolphins and whales on the E-D?

[Mikey]

I don't think he ever said that the whales couldn't receive.

[Sionnach Glic]

It's pretty obvious they can recieve, otherwise there'd be no point transmitting, would there?

Also, the effect on Earth's atmosphere could have been a side effect of one of the probe's other functions, like the effect that disabled the ships it encountered.

Prove it.

[Mikey]

Prove it.

Sorry, Rochey, this one's a judgment call. I actually tend to agree that the atmospheric disturbacnes, etc., were a side effect; otherwise, why wouldn't they be more direct-able?

[Sionnach Glic]

Who said they weren't? The probe was blanketing the entire planet with its comms. If the comms had any side-effects, they should therefore be present over the entire area affected.

[Mikey]

If the comms had any side-effects, they should therefore be present over the entire area affected.

Right. (my emphasis)

[Blackstar the Chakat]

It's pretty obvious they can recieve, otherwise there'd be no point transmitting, would there?

Then, how can they recieve?

Also, the effect on Earth's atmosphere could have been a side effect of one of the probe's other functions, like the effect that disabled the ships it encountered.

Prove it.

The effect did not seem intentional. There is no logical reason to assume its intentions were hostile. What purpose would damaging the enviroment serve?

[Granitehewer]

I don't think he ever said that the whales couldn't receive.

prison-inneundo alert lol

[Mikey]

prison-inneundo alert lol

I was waiting for that, but I expected it from Tsu.

[Sionnach Glic]

Then, how can they recieve?

No idea. Though we have seen in a few TNG+ era episodes that some races have tech that can talk directly to peoples' minds. It wouldn't be implausable to suggest that this probe had such a system, particularly given its apparent sophistication.

And I believe we've gone over this subject before. Go back and read the thread again.

The effect did not seem intentional. There is no logical reason to assume its intentions were hostile. What purpose would damaging the enviroment serve?

None. I never said it did it deliberately.

[Tsukiyumi]

prison-inneundo alert lol

I was waiting for that, but I expected it from Tsu.

Yeah, sorry. I was out having lunch with Uzume. She says hi, BTW.

I don't think whales would even notice if they were recieving.

Unless from another whale...

[Mikey]

I don't think whales would even notice if they were recieving.

That's 'cause they haven't met me.

[Graham Kennedy]

Fine, but I'm not going over all this again.

Nobody asked you to. If you want to leave my comments unanswered then you are more than welcome to do so. But the fact that you've discussed an issue doesn't mean nobody else can ever raise it again, you know.

The probe was transmitting from the moment a ship came into contact with it, and proceeded to continue to transmitting throughout its journey, and also when it arrived in orbit. The logical conclusion is that it was broadcasting the signals from the moment it set course for Earth.

Completely agreed. To me the sequence of events seems to be that the aliens were in contact with the whales in the 80s, lost contact with them when they went extinct, then the probe came for a look-see. I see no reason why it wouldn't be signalling to them throughout that entire time.

If it could broadcast its signals from, say, the Klingon border, there'd be no need for it to jump into Earth orbit.

Really? You don't think they came to see why they lost contact with the whales, like Spock said?

The fact that Earth's atmosphere didn't start getting messed with until the probe was in orbit further indicates that it didn't have the range to reach Earth from that distance at all.

I don't see how you jump to that conclusion. Personally I took the messed up atmosphere to be simply a matter of proximity to such a strong transmitter.

A present day high power microwave transmitter can melt your lunch if it's right in front of the dish, but that doesn't mean it can't communicate over a greater distance.

[Sionnach Glic]

Nobody asked you to. If you want to leave my comments unanswered then you are more than welcome to do so. But the fact that you've discussed an issue doesn't mean nobody else can ever raise it again, you know.

I know that. But when you've gone over it numerous times, as I have with Blackstar, it gets rather tiring. Particularly when shi decides to bring it back up again.

Really? You don't think they came to see why they lost contact with the whales, like Spock said?

I think you misunderstood me.
Blackstar's argument was that whales had some sort of connection with subspace, and could communicate via it. Shi suggested that the reason the probe started broadcasting from that distance was because the whales themselves could "speak" to that distance. I pointed out that were this the case there's be little reason for the probe to go to Earth from the moment it came into range. At the very least it would have held position for a while to see if it got an answer before heading towards Earth. The fact that it was heading to Earth from the moment it made the whales its priority indicated to me that it needed to be close to Earth to recieve whatever answer it expected, and was merely broadcasting its signal the entire time.

I don't see how you jump to that conclusion. Personally I took the messed up atmosphere to be simply a matter of proximity to such a strong transmitter.

*shrug* That's very likely. Point conceded.

[Graham Kennedy]

I know that. But when you've gone over it numerous times, as I have with Blackstar, it gets rather tiring. Particularly when shi decides to bring it back up again.

lol, then like I say, stop doing it! It's surreal to see a person choose to do something and then complain that they are doing it.

Blackstar's argument was that whales had some sort of connection with subspace, and could communicate via it. Shi suggested that the reason the probe started broadcasting from that distance was because the whales themselves could "speak" to that distance. I pointed out that were this the case there's be little reason for the probe to go to Earth from the moment it came into range. At the very least it would have held position for a while to see if it got an answer before heading towards Earth. The fact that it was heading to Earth from the moment it made the whales its priority indicated to me that it needed to be close to Earth to recieve whatever answer it expected, and was merely broadcasting its signal the entire time.

My position is that the probe is not range limited, particularly. I mean, obviously it must have some sort of theoretical range limit, but I don't think there was ever a time during or before the movie when it was out of range.

FWIW, I glanced at the first couple of pages of the novel of ST IV once and what I remember best about it was that the probe was not "sent to Earth" as such. It was not a probe, it was more like V'ger... a sentient entity of some sort travelling through space. The novel said it was ancient, and was typically in contact with many species across a vast area of space. The probe was used to hearing species go quiet now and again as they became extinct, but the Earth whales were different because they died out in incredible pain and anguish - they knew that there was some sort of campaign of violence against them and the probe sensed that. The probe had never encountered a species that was literally butchered into extinction before, it had no idea what had happened, so it came to investigate.

Yeah, non canon and all that.

[Sionnach Glic]

lol, then like I say, stop doing it! It's surreal to see a person choose to do something and then complain that they are doing it.

I'm sure it is, but I have this thing about answering when someone says something to me. It just seems rather rude to me to just leave someone's response unanswered. *shrug*

My position is that the probe is not range limited, particularly. I mean, obviously it must have some sort of theoretical range limit, but I don't think there was ever a time during or before the movie when it was out of range.

That's very probable.

FWIW, I glanced at the first couple of pages of the novel of ST IV once and what I remember best about it was that the probe was not "sent to Earth" as such. It was not a probe, it was more like V'ger... a sentient entity of some sort travelling through space. The novel said it was ancient, and was typically in contact with many species across a vast area of space. The probe was used to hearing species go quiet now and again as they became extinct, but the Earth whales were different because they died out in incredible pain and anguish - they knew that there was some sort of campaign of violence against them and the probe sensed that. The probe had never encountered a species that was literally butchered into extinction before, it had no idea what had happened, so it came to investigate.

Insteresting concept. Pity they didn't really explain the probe in the film.