Ferengi are rubbish businessmen

[Graham Kennedy]

I hate how the Ferengi are depicted in Trek. They are touted as the ultimate capitalists.

They are awful capitalists! Truly horrible. They lie, they cheat, they steal every chance they get. A businessman wouldn't last five minutes behaving like that! Reputation is everything in the business world. Nobody will deal with a company that routinely cheats and lies, especially when it gets caught doing it regularly.

Seriously, why would anybody EVER deal with a Ferengi?

Whoever created this race (Roddenberry?) wanted to critique capitalism... but they did a horribly poor job of it, IMO. Little wonder this species which was touted as the new big bad villains of TNG ended up as little more than comic relief.

[Thorin]

Wasn't it because of their big bad villain status that they were turned into the comedians? No one could take them seriously?

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Well, I think we saw the negative side of Ferengi alot, much like how many people in the US think that it's places like Brazil that has drug problems because that's where a lot of pot comes from. But in reality it's a small portion of the people down there that are involved with that. We just think they're all drug lords and whatnot because that's the part we often see.

[Duskofdead]

They lie, they cheat, they steal every chance they get. A businessman wouldn't last five minutes behaving like that!

On the small business level, I agree. In the big business level, I think this is very naive.

[Mikey]

It's just as naive - although cynically so - to say that big business always lies, cheats, and steals simply because it's big business. There are far more huge corporations which have acheived success through honest, if maybe cold and ruthless, dealings than there are the Haliburtons etc. It's just that the bad ones get the press.

GK is right - being as dishonest and shady as ALL Ferengi (save Rom) are depicted would be a huge detriment to business, especially consumer-contact types of business as the Ferengi are mostly shown in. Word-of-mouth carries even more weight than normal when one is involved in black- or grey-market dealings, as Ferengi often are, because there is no other avenue of advertisement.

[Duskofdead]

It's just as naive - although cynically so - to say that big business always lies, cheats, and steals simply because it's big business. There are far more huge corporations which have acheived success through honest, if maybe cold and ruthless, dealings than there are the Haliburtons etc. It's just that the bad ones get the press.

GK is right - being as dishonest and shady as ALL Ferengi (save Rom) are depicted would be a huge detriment to business, especially consumer-contact types of business as the Ferengi are mostly shown in. Word-of-mouth carries even more weight than normal when one is involved in black- or grey-market dealings, as Ferengi often are, because there is no other avenue of advertisement.

Have you ever done any accounting work for very large businesses?

They all are crooked, and intentionally so. They may not lie about their products but it is totally standard fare to be "strategically dishonest", in fact, being honest is considered being a really bad businessman. There is a shared perception (among execs and business leaders) that they are all merely "avoiding unjust laws" rather than breaking the law.

Small businesses are usually just as bad. But, they get caught more easily and more frequently. As with most things, the law is set up that it (by coincidence or design) happens to penalize lower class offenders than upper class offenders of the same crime. In a small family business, for instance, dad and mom not only KNOW there's illegal immigrant labor, they know the people by first name and give them birthday presents. In a big business the higher ups are just as aware of the sorts of illegal things they're doing, but have more cushioning and plausible deniability about everything. (Oh I don't know anything about that, accounts handles that.) That's why they make CEO's sign accounting records now after Enron.

[Mikey]

I weould have to see evidence showing that a majority of upper management in a majority of all business over "x" amount of capitalization feels and operates that way in order to say it was so.

[Duskofdead]

I weould have to see evidence showing that a majority of upper management in a majority of all business over "x" amount of capitalization feels and operates that way in order to say it was so.

It's not a "conspiracy", if you hang around business execs bending or ignoring certain laws is regarded as just common business sense. The use of illegal immigrant labor in the restaurant industry or the agriculture industry are just one example a lot of people are familiar with-- it's the norm, not the exception. There is very little loyalty to the idea of obeying the law, the concern is much more with okay if we're going to break the law, how do we minimize our liability.

Can't "prove" a numerical majority do it. But I'm curious why you assume a majority are straight, do you have some particular reason to believe so?

[Blackstar the Chakat]

I weould have to see evidence showing that a majority of upper management in a majority of all business over "x" amount of capitalization feels and operates that way in order to say it was so.

If there was evidence then they wouldn't be doing it or they would've been caught.

[Mikey]

Only the same as yours - I have worked for a number of major corporations (or their franchises) and have in general actually been pleasantly surprised by the way they conducted themselves.

[Duskofdead]

Only the same as yours - I have worked for a number of major corporations (or their franchises) and have in general actually been pleasantly surprised by the way they conducted themselves.

Great. Can you claim you were intimately aware with how they handled their accounts for tax purposes?

[Mikey]

No, but I can claim that I am intimately aware of how they handled both client and vendor accounts, payment terms, shipping, A/P, A/R, HR, and labor relations. If the discussion is merely about taxes and no other aspect of business dealings, then I disqualify myself.

[Duskofdead]

No, but I can claim that I am intimately aware of how they handled both client and vendor accounts, payment terms, shipping, A/P, A/R, HR, and labor relations. If the discussion is merely about taxes and no other aspect of business dealings, then I disqualify myself.

I think a lot of honest well intentioned people work for every business, large and small. But when we're talking about the corporation, as an entity, the thing is almost by its definition, evil. It is concerned with profit and growth and survival, and that's it. Period. It is not concerned for people, laws, human welfare, its employees. All of those things are expendable. And someone has to make those decisions. And that person might be an otherwise moral, honest person. But if that person makes honest, moral decisions as CEO, he will be regarded as a poor businessman and removed. There may be exceptions out there, but as a general rule, the shareholders or investors or even the owners depending on the company, don't care how the money is made. They want it made.

In the case of small businesses, you may have generally honest people running it, but there are industries where you cannot compete without breaking the law. If you are a family restaurant operating without illegal labor, for instance, you will be the only family diner in town charging $17 for chicken strips. That may be the result of bad trade laws/policies but that's another discussion. Companies will do what they have to to turn a profit or, in the case of huger corporations not in imminent danger of bankruptcy, to stay competitive. Post office boxes in the Cayman Islands,anyone?

[Mikey]

But when we're talking about the corporation, as an entity, the thing is almost by its definition, evil.

Careful, Dusk. Your bias is showing.

It is concerned with profit and growth and survival, and that's it. Period.

That's not evil - that's natural. That is the function of the entity which you are describing. Calling it evil for fulfilling its purpose strikes me as a little spinny. My dog is a middle-order mammal; he is concerned, like all his canine ancestors, with his own survival. If left on his own in the wild, he would kill and eat another animal. Yet, you would call him evil for not taking into account the welfare of his prey.

[Duskofdead]

That's not evil - that's natural. That is the function of the entity which you are describing.

I've heard businessman say that playing with accounts to not pay taxes owed is natural... and smart, and good business sense. And outsourcing, same thing. Using illegal immigrant labor, same thing. So where exactly do you personally draw the line where companies are no longer basically good and law abiding and honest?

Oh I forgot a few. Not mentioning that they were exposing their employees to toxic breathable chemicals, not mentioning they'd let lead slip into their toys, not mentioning that they'd had septic lines break where their crops were growing until people eating spinach and packaged salad started getting seriously ill....