Insurrection

[Blackstar the Chakat]

In Insurrection they used holograms to hide their research team and the holoship. I'm assuming the holoship was holographicly hidden since the Federation is forbidden to use cloaking technology, and it was hidden in a sensor resistant area. But why did the Holoship create a visible hole in the water while a isolation suited person falling into water didn't create the same effect.

Also, why wasn't there another federation ship in the area? There should at least be one for the Starfleet observers and the Admiral to use. If the Son'a killed the Admiral and Starfleet crews they would've been able to take the Ba'ku without Federation interference. Why was Starfleet in there? Clearly the Brier Patch creates sensor and communication issues, they could be in and out before the Federation knew about them. This is the only real nit pick I have with the movie. The first one is more of a CGI mistake.

[Mikey]

The first part... IDK. Maybe they were trying to keep the power signature low, and didn't bother to expend more energy against the slim possibility of Data going ape-sh*$ and draining the lake.

Second part - Dougherty probably wa trying to keep as few people in the loop as possble.

[Tsukiyumi]

That sounds about right. This was a low-key operation, and any ship capable of taking on even Ruafo's ship would have a fairly large crew.

[Captain Seafort]

To the first, I think the holoship had a genuine cloaking device, rather than holographic screens - either the Feds were ignoring th ToA (again), or they were using a relatively simple device that was enough to fool the eye and passive scans, but not a full active scan. The emissions-damping properties of the Briar Patch probably helped.

To the second, they did have a ship, albeit a much smaller one than the Son'a - the one Data used to attack them.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

To the first, I think the holoship had a genuine cloaking device, rather than holographic screens - either the Feds were ignoring th ToA (again), or they were using a relatively simple device that was enough to fool the eye and passive scans, but not a full active scan. The emissions-damping properties of the Briar Patch probably helped.

I would've thought a cloak would do better then holograms at hiding something. The ship was also hidden in an area were those deposits of interfering material that help later in the movie were.

[Mikey]

Perhaps it was a cloak, rather than a holographic cover - that would explain the "hole" in the water. It is true that Dougherty semed to care more about his ends than the moral high ground of his means.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Ya, but he was supported by the Federation council, and if the Romulans found out there would be hell to pay. The Pegesus at least was able to claim it was being done by a group of rouges, but Dougherty had the support of the council. But Dougherty also isn't the smartest man and does seem to lack a moral center.

[Captain Seafort]

Ya, but he was supported by the Federation council, and if the Romulans found out there would be hell to pay.

Hence my proposal that it's a no-frills cloak. Good enough to hide the ship from sight, or passive scanning, but not enough to defeat modern EW suites. It's similar to legislation around modern land mines - it's possible to construct them completely of plastic (and therefore undectectable), but there are various treaties that require them to have a given mass of mental to make post-war clearance easier.

Bottom line is that it acts like a cloak, and is refered to as a cloak. Therefore it's a cloak.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Bottom line is that it acts like a cloak, and is refered to as a cloak. Therefore it's a cloak.

It acts like a cloak, and is refered to as a cloak. Therefore it's a cloak. But yet it could be seen by emteying a dam, and we saw water dripping down the sides. Worst cloak ever, but I guess it could still be called a cloak.

And I just thought of something else. Who were they 'cloaking' it from? Both the Federation and the Son'a knew about it, it was underwater where the Ba'ku can't breath, and it's visable when they emtey the lake.

I've got to find a screencap of that hole in the lake and do a motivational poster talking about Plotholes.

[Captain Seafort]

It acts like a cloak, and is refered to as a cloak. Therefore it's a cloak. But yet it could be seen by emteying a dam, and we saw water dripping down the sides. Worst cloak ever, but I guess it could still be called a cloak.

Cloaks have always made holes - look at the Bounty's feet in ST4, or the Duras siaters' BoP in "Firstborn". Theoretically a landed BoP could be detected by examining it's effect on air currents. Since they're intended to operate in a vacuum it's hardly a serious weakness.

And I just thought of something else. Who were they 'cloaking' it from? Both the Federation and the Son'a knew about it, it was underwater where the Ba'ku can't breath, and it's visable when they emtey the lake.

It wasn't far below the surface, so it could easilly have been spotted by someone on the hillside above the lake.

[Mikey]

The hole in the water is how we differentiate a cloak from a holographic cover, and how I got to that conclusion mentioned above. A cloak is designed to "merely" make something invisible from EM radiation - NOT to make it look like something else (such as the water that the ship is displacing.)

[Sionnach Glic]

It would be quite possible for them to have found a loophole in the treaty they signed with the Romulans.
For example, it could say "no cloaks that can fool shields", but say nothing about cloaks that can't fool shields. This way, they can use the cloak (which it pretty certainly was, given the evidence) against the Ba'ku, while not worrying about antagonising the Romulans (if they ever found out, of course).

[Deepcrush]

In truth though, I doubt the Romulans are in any shape to pick about the ToA anyhow. Both sides have broken the treaty a number of times. Its mostly worthless now as far as I care.

[Captain Seafort]

In truth though, I doubt the Romulans are in any shape to pick about the ToA anyhow. Both sides have broken the treaty a number of times. Its mostly worthless now as far as I care.

Both sides? We've never heard anything about the Romulans having to do anything under the treaty. Best guess seems to put "Insurrection" during the later part of the Dominion war, so either the Treaty was suspended for the duration, or a breach could cause the Romulans to leave the alliance. Which would leave the Feds and Klingons up shit creek without a paddle

[Deepcrush]

Most of the time a treaty is there to avoid war. Unless your King George... Or Pres Bush. Both of who seem to have been unable to understand ANYTHING AT ALL!