Insurrection

Post by **Mikey** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:31 pm

Exactly, GK. I think the need for secrecy - and Picard's attitude backs this up - was not from the council, or a subcommittee, but from the fact the general polulace would have been up in arms over the whole matter - against both the project AND the council which authorized it.

Post by **Graham Kennedy** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:54 pm

I really wish we had got more of a look at how Federation politics worked. It's a subject they almost obsessively avoided throughout TOS.

I mean, is the Federation even a democracy? We have no real idea. In fact the only clue we do have indicates that it's not - T'Pau turned down a seat on the council. Meaning that she didn't stand for election, it was offered to her by somebody, somewhere. But is that just Vulcans, or all council members? And what's the relation between the council and the president? What are the planetary governments like and what's their relationship to the Federation government? We don't even know how the courts work.

In TOS, the government model seemed to be the UN. In TNG, it seems to be the US government. The TOS one kinda makes more sense to me, actually, since I can't really see democracy being implemented by hundreds of different species.

I'd assume that the Federation is some sort of democracy, if only because that's how the writers would likely jump if pressed to it. But when it comes to government decisions, even major ones like going to war, nobody ever so much as mentions public opinion or any kind of politics being a deciding factor.

Post by **Mikey** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:13 am

One of the few indications we have is in Insurrection itself, when Picard seems to imply that public opinion would carry weight of some sort with the Council.

Captain Picard's Hair · Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:15 am

DS9: Homeward/Paradise Lost implied that the President had significant powers. The funny thing is, we know more about Klingon and Romulan politics than we do Federation politics!

Post by **Mikey** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:19 am

Captain Picard's Hair wrote:DS9: Homeward/Paradise Lost implied that the President had significant powers. The funny thing is, we know more about Klingon and Romulan politics than we do Federation politics!

Then again in STIV, the president seemed inclined to hide and let Starfleet handle everything.

Captain Picard's Hair · Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:33 am

Yeah, adding to Graham's questions, the relationship between Starfleet and the President/Council has never been fully elucidated.

Captain Picard's Hair · Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:42 am

...or, perhaps, even the relationship between SF Intelligence and the rest of Starfleet, let alone the President and Council.

Hell, in the Dominion war, we never heard of who Admiral Ross reported to.

Post by **Graham Kennedy** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:46 am

The weirdest thing in all this for me is Bashir's dad. When they found out Bashir was genetically enhanced, it was a Starfleet officer who arranged for his dad to go to prison for the crime! Starfleet has judicial jurisdiction over civilians?!

Post by **Mikey** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:49 am

Hmmm... I didn't recall that - good catch, GK. The UFP does seem awfully totalitarian for a peacenik bunch of do-gooders, don't they?

Captain Picard's Hair · Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:54 am

How about TNG: The Pegasus. If Pressman, with the backing of the mysterious Starfleet Intelligence, was breaking a major treaty signed by the Federation, shouldn't the President and/or Council have showed up somewhere?

Post by **Graham Kennedy** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:00 am

I don't mind that one. He broke the law, he was caught and thrown in a cell. Presumably he got a JAG trial and sentence back home. That's pretty much what would happen in any western democracy today in a similar situation.

But imagine a person breaking the law, and his son joins the army... so the army prosecute the dad and send him to prison. Huh?!

Another one... in ST IV when we see the officers meet the president at the end, I always thought all those folks in the seating areas were the Federation Council. But there's Starfleet officers there. Serving officers sit on the governing body? Weird. I chalked them up as being some sort of military advisors to the real council members or something.

Hmmm, I might write an article about all this.

KuvahMagh · Post by **KuvahMagh** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:55 am

Historically Serving Officers have been a part of an elected body so its not impossible.

Jervis served in Parliament from 1783-1794 while he was a serving Officer.

Likewise Thomas Cochrane served, pushing for radical reforms in Parliament.

As to the Democracy Issue, in Errand of Mercy there is a Scene with Kirk and Kor arguing:

Kor: You of the Federation, you are much like us.

Kirk: We're nothing like you. We're a democratic body.

This takes place moments before Kirk tells Kor to "Go climb a tree".

Post by **Graham Kennedy** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:39 am

Ooo, cool, nice quote. Thanks

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:29 pm

KuvahMagh wrote:Historically Serving Officers have been a part of an elected body so its not impossible.

Jervis served in Parliament from 1783-1794 while he was a serving Officer.

Likewise Thomas Cochrane served, pushing for radical reforms in Parliament.

As to the Democracy Issue, in Errand of Mercy there is a Scene with Kirk and Kor arguing:

Kor: You of the Federation, you are much like us.

Kirk: We're nothing like you. We're a democratic body.

This takes place moments before Kirk tells Kor to "Go climb a tree".

Where those not officers who happened to be lords though? Various orders in Penisula War era Britain conferred the honour and responsibility of serving in Parliament.

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:56 pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:Where those not officers who happened to be lords though? Various orders in Penisula War era Britain conferred the honour and responsibility of serving in Parliament.

They both became peers later on (Jervis was raised as Earl St Vincent in 1797, and Cochrane inherited the Earldom of Dundonald in 1831), but prior to that they both sat as members of the House of Commons.