Picard's Worst Decision

[Sionnach Glic]

A) There were a hell of a lot more than 600 (minus however many get killed while siezing the crap ship they get stuck with).
B) Those guys had military experience, and many were ex-military. No such luck for the Amish.
C) The Maquis had ships and guns and pre-existing bases. Again, the SpAmish don't.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

A) There were a hell of a lot more than 600 (minus however many get killed while siezing the crap ship they get stuck with).

Evidence?

B) Those guys had military experience, and many were ex-military. No such luck for the Amish.

They almost destroyed their own civilization. How do you do that without a military?

C) The Maquis had ships and guns and pre-existing bases. Again, the SpAmish don't.

Evidence? For the pre-existing bases?

[Deepcrush]

Evidence?

Don't be stupid.

They almost destroyed their own civilization. How do you do that without a military?

Thats then, this is now. We call it... T I M E.... (dun dun duhhhhhh!)

Evidence? For the pre-existing bases?

The show...

Just maybe...

[Sionnach Glic]

Evidence?

The Maquis are considered a fairly powerful group for a bunch of terrorists. They were able to survive having both the Federation and the Cardassians gunning for them. Logic dictates that they'd have a lot more than six hundred people. Also, the fact that the Maquis were the inhabitants of a bunch of planets that were handed over also points to that conclusion. You aren't even going to man a single colony with six hundred people, let alone more than one. Thus the conclusion that they have more personel, likely numbering into the thousands when they started out.

They almost destroyed their own civilization. How do you do that without a military?

And, naturaly, each of these six hundred survivors would have been in the military.
Even if we assume that a massive ten percent of the planet's population was in the military, that's still only sixty people with any idea of how to handle a weapon, and any tactics they may have known would likely have been long forgotten.
In reality, you'd be lucky if any of them were in the military.

Evidence? For the pre-existing bases?

It stands to reason that whatever defence forces the planets in the DMZ had had would have made bunkers and bases. Even if there weren't any bases that had been constructed, they had good knowledge of the area, and would have known all the best hiding spots.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

They almost destroyed their own civilization. How do you do that without a military?

Thats then, this is now. We call it... T I M E.... (dun dun duhhhhhh!)

Well, I doubt they'd forget everything in 300 years. Long term memories are lost because of dying brain cells. Something to that effect at least. However the planet has regenerative properties, and it would keep those memories from degrading.

Evidence? For the pre-existing bases?

The show...

Well, there is no evidence that the bases already existed. In a way the Maquis were worst off then the Ba'ku, fighting both the Cardassians and Starfleet. And both sides seem to have plenty of spys.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

It stands to reason that whatever defence forces the planets in the DMZ had had would have made bunkers and bases. Even if there weren't any bases that had been constructed, they had good knowledge of the area, and would have known all the best hiding spots.

Right...now where would the Ba'ku know of a good hiding spot?

[Sionnach Glic]

Well, I doubt they'd forget everything in 300 years. Long term memories are lost because of dying brain cells. Something to that effect at least. However the planet has regenerative properties, and it would keep those memories from degrading.

Information is also lost if the brain does nothing to retain it. After three hundred years of trying to forget about technology, do you seriously expect anyone to be able to remember military tactics and how to operate computers?
People can forget things like that in just a few years, after three hundred years there's virtualy no chance of remembering things they've never even thought about.

Well, there is no evidence that the bases already existed. In a way the Maquis were worst off then the Ba'ku, fighting both the Cardassians and Starfleet. And both sides seem to have plenty of spys

Did you just decide to completely ignore my post? I already showed how there is a good likelyhood of there being some sort of fortified structres scattered around the area (an area on the border of another power, as well, which would make it even more likely to have them).

Right...now where would the Ba'ku know of a good hiding spot?

If you're talking about the nebula, that would be one of the first places to be searched. And isn't it right next to Ba'ku? With all the Federation activity around there, it isn't exactly smart to hide there.

[Deepcrush]

Well, I doubt they'd forget everything in 300 years. Long term memories are lost because of dying brain cells. Something to that effect at least. However the planet has regenerative properties, and it would keep those memories from degrading.

Being out of practice, out of mind, without training, 300 years apart and an opponent that is just a BIT tougher well, lets think on this one. NO! I remember how to shoot but if I went 300 years without pratice going from blackpowder to and M-16 I might just have some trouble.

Well, there is no evidence that the bases already existed.

We call these brain dead moments. They not only talk about them but I remember seeing at least one when sisko took edington to pick up his wife.

[Sionnach Glic]

I remember how to shoot but if I went 300 years without pratice going from blackpowder to and M-16 I might just have some trouble.

Don't forget, Deep, that modern weapons are actualy designed inteligently. At least it's pretty obvious how to pick up and use an M-16 or and AK. And it wouldn't take to long for you to figure how to use the sights properly.
Now, imagine picking up one of the ridiculous phasers, with no stock, no sights, no trigger guard, no way to aim the gun properly and a host of other problems, and trying to hit an enemy trying to kill you in the middle of a fight. Hell, then there's the problem with the Ba'ku figuring out how to change the settings.

[Deepcrush]

modern weapons are actualy designed inteligently

Again this makes it even harder for the spaceamish.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Well, there is no evidence that the bases already existed. In a way the Maquis were worst off then the Ba'ku, fighting both the Cardassians and Starfleet. And both sides seem to have plenty of spys

Did you just decide to completely ignore my post? I already showed how there is a good likelyhood of there being some sort of fortified structres scattered around the area (an area on the border of another power, as well, which would make it even more likely to have them).

No I missed you post. Give me a little credit. But you don't think both sides would see to it that the other's bases were destroyed before the area was turned into the DMZ?

Right...now where would the Ba'ku know of a good hiding spot?

If you're talking about the nebula, that would be one of the first places to be searched. And isn't it right next to Ba'ku? With all the Federation activity around there, it isn't exactly smart to hide there.

IMO it's the perfect place to hide. What better place to hide then right under your enemy's nose? And the federation didn't have a whole lot of activity. Before the E-E showed up the only federation ship was a small scout craft. Even the Son'a only had three ships and the collector in the areo.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

I remember how to shoot but if I went 300 years without pratice going from blackpowder to and M-16 I might just have some trouble.

Don't forget, Deep, that modern weapons are actualy designed inteligently. At least it's pretty obvious how to pick up and use an M-16 or and AK. And it wouldn't take to long for you to figure how to use the sights properly.
Now, imagine picking up one of the ridiculous phasers, with no stock, no sights, no trigger guard, no way to aim the gun properly and a host of other problems, and trying to hit an enemy trying to kill you in the middle of a fight. Hell, then there's the problem with the Ba'ku figuring out how to change the settings.

It has three whole buttons. A monkey could figure it out. Although the monkey is likely to shoot itself first, but I'm sure the Ba'ku can at least figure out where the muzzle is.

[Sionnach Glic]

But you don't think both sides would see to it that the other's bases were destroyed before the area was turned into the DMZ?

True. But all it takes is a few bases which weren't found (the reports on it's construction may say "it's in asteroid field X", but actualy finding it is a different matter), or some that weren't reported at all, or some whose plans were lost, or some who were recently constructed and not yet reported. Given the war, it's quite likely that there would have been a frenzy of construction going on around the area, so the likelyhood of such bases and conditions existing are quite high.

IMO it's the perfect place to hide. What better place to hide then right under your enemy's nose?

Yeah, just go ahead and hide in the most freakin' obvious place possible. That sounds like a good idea.
The Federation recieves a call that a ship has been siezed, and they don't bother checking the fething big nebula right next door to the planet they were so hell-bent on keeping? That's the most obvious place you can hide, and it's the first place that'll be searched.
There's a difference between hiding under his nose and standing right in front of him with your hands over your eyes yelling "I'm invisible!".

And the federation didn't have a whole lot of activity. Before the E-E showed up the only federation ship was a small scout craft.

That's because they had no reason to keep an eye on that area. When they get access to this miracle particle thing, expect Ba'ku to be one of the most heavily defended places in the Federation. People aren't going to leave the fountain of youth completely undefended from hostile attack.

Even the Son'a only had three ships and the collector in the areo.

And even that's more than enough to keep a good eye on the area, and check the nebula. The Son'a would probably jump at the opurtunity to wipe out the Ba'ku.

[Sionnach Glic]

It has three whole buttons. A monkey could figure it out. Although the monkey is likely to shoot itself first, but I'm sure the Ba'ku can at least figure out where the muzzle is.

It has three buttons, so how do you differentiate between turning it down enough so that it only tickles the enemy and turning the gun off completely? Keep in mind that you're trying to learn how to fire and aim the most un-ergonmic gun ever designed while being shot at by people who do know how to use them.
I also like how you completely ignored the dozens of other problems with learning how to proficiently use the gun, too.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

But you don't think both sides would see to it that the other's bases were destroyed before the area was turned into the DMZ?

True. But all it takes is a few bases which weren't found (the reports on it's construction may say "it's in asteroid field X", but actualy finding it is a different matter), or some that weren't reported at all, or some whose plans were lost, or some who were recently constructed and not yet reported. Given the war, it's quite likely that there would have been a frenzy of construction going on around the area, so the likelyhood of such bases and conditions existing are quite high.

Point conceded

IMO it's the perfect place to hide. What better place to hide then right under your enemy's nose?

Yeah, just go ahead and hide in the most freakin' obvious place possible. That sounds like a good idea.
The Federation recieves a call that a ship has been siezed, and they don't bother checking the fething big nebula right next door to the planet they were so hell-bent on keeping? That's the most obvious place you can hide, and it's the first place that'll be searched.
There's a difference between hiding under his nose and standing right in front of him with your hands over your eyes yelling "I'm invisible!".

It worked for me. Honestly it did. While the moron was standing there going, "Wait, what?" and trying to figure out what was going on, I punched him in the nose, and while he was dazed, knocked his knife away and kicked him in the nuts.

With the right tactics it could work.

And the federation didn't have a whole lot of activity. Before the E-E showed up the only federation ship was a small scout craft.

That's because they had no reason to keep an eye on that area. When they get access to this miracle particle thing, expect Ba'ku to be one of the most heavily defended places in the Federation. People aren't going to leave the fountain of youth completely undefended from hostile attack.

Shouldn't they set it up ahead of time? I would think that's a point you'd make. Usually you're on top of conventional tactics and tactical errors. If this thing is going to be such a big deal they should set up defences before anyone else can find out what's going on and sends a fleet to take it.