Age of Klingon Empire?

The Next Generation

Re: Age of Klingon Empire?

Postby Tinadrin Chelnor » Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:52 pm

Or even the Coalition-Romulan War if the Vulcans, Andorians, or Tellarites were even close to equal to Earth's role. From what I remember of the little of Enterprise I saw, all the other powers were portrayed as well ahead of Earth in terms of developing warp drive.
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross... but it's not for the timid." - Q to Picard.
User avatar
Tinadrin Chelnor
Lieutenant
Lieutenant
 
Posts: 572
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:11 am
Location: South and East England, United Kingdom

Re: Age of Klingon Empire?

Postby Captain Seafort » Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:54 pm

Teaos wrote:It would be called the Romulan/Vulcan war if they had helped us that much.


Why? We don't know the nature of the support - the Vulcans might simply have supplied all the kit while Earth did the fighting. The Arab-Israeli Wars still get that name, despite the degree of US support the Israelis got. It might simply have started off as a purely Earth-Romulan affair, then everyone else got involved later and the first name stuck.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.

Across the Universe - Chapter 2 now up
User avatar
Captain Seafort
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 14981
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: Age of Klingon Empire?

Postby Teaos » Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:07 pm

I'm not so much concerned about the technology used in the war so much as the massive disparity in industry and infrastructure there must have been between a upstart and a centuries old empire.
User avatar
Teaos
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 14632
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:00 am
Location: Behind you!

Re: Age of Klingon Empire?

Postby Captain Seafort » Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:16 pm

Teaos wrote:I'm not so much concerned about the technology used in the war so much as the massive disparity in industry and infrastructure there must have been between a upstart and a centuries old empire.


Then we go back to the Arab-Israeli War comparison. During the Yom Kippur War the Israelis had completely exhausted their pre-war supply dumps by the mid-point of the war, before Sharon's counter attack across the canal. The only reason they were able to keep fighting was because the US started flying in all the ammunition and other supplies they needed. I can easily see the other three founder members doing the same for Earth.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.

Across the Universe - Chapter 2 now up
User avatar
Captain Seafort
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 14981
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: Age of Klingon Empire?

Postby Teaos » Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:24 pm

But here we are looking at a vastly different scale.

This isnt Israel/Arab this is the equivalent of Russia/Georgia. No amount of aid is going to keep them from being steam rolled.
User avatar
Teaos
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 14632
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:00 am
Location: Behind you!

Re: Age of Klingon Empire?

Postby Captain Seafort » Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:32 pm

Teaos wrote:But here we are looking at a vastly different scale.


We don't know what the scale was - we don't know enough about the causes, conduct or conclusion of the war to be able to draw any firm conclusions.

This isnt Israel/Arab this is the equivalent of Russia/Georgia. No amount of aid is going to keep them from being steam rolled.


Not really. Earth was the new kid on the block, but they'd had a century to be brought up to speed, were aggressively expansionist as Enterprise demonstrated, and had a lot of tough friends.

In the end, however much we go back and forth about how the Romulan War was won, the fact remains that it was. Whether that was due to Earth doing the fighting with material support from her allies, or all the future founding members of the UFP getting stuck into the Romulans and Earth getting the credit, the war was won.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.

Across the Universe - Chapter 2 now up
User avatar
Captain Seafort
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 14981
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: Age of Klingon Empire?

Postby Vic » Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:01 am

It seems that the normal progression of tech is in the "slow grind" area rather than "leaps of faith". Red Flight Leader, 'Stay on topic, Stay on topic!' When did the Hurq(?) raid the Klingons? Since they stole Khaless' Batleth that seems to be close to the founding of their planetary empire. Seems to me that DS9 had enough Klingon interaction that something was said about how long ago Khaless unified the Klingons.
God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy.
.................................................Billy Currington
Vic
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander
 
Posts: 1065
Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 11:20 am
Location: Tucson Az

Re: Age of Klingon Empire?

Postby Vic » Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:02 am

multi post
Last edited by Vic on Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy.
.................................................Billy Currington
Vic
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander
 
Posts: 1065
Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 11:20 am
Location: Tucson Az

Re: Age of Klingon Empire?

Postby Vic » Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:02 am

Multi post, durn slow computer!
Last edited by Vic on Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy.
.................................................Billy Currington
Vic
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander
 
Posts: 1065
Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 11:20 am
Location: Tucson Az

Re: Age of Klingon Empire?

Postby Mikey » Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:09 am

I think you guys are missing Seafort's point. When he speaks of the support Earth received from Andoria, Tellar, Vulcan, et. al.; it doesn't have to mean actual allied contribution to the war effort, or even materiel and other material. The fact of those other peoples having just previously given Earth technological assistance and intel is enough to discount the idea of Earth having achieved a certain level "on its own."

Further, we should also remember that the Romulan Star Empire and the Klingon Empire are, well... empires. Totalitarian governments tend to support the status quo and a certain intentional lack of progression.
"We've been over this. We don't shoot first and ask questions later."
"Of course! We never ask questions."
User avatar
Mikey
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
 
Posts: 33090
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:04 am
Location: down the shore, New Jersey, USA

Re: Age of Klingon Empire?

Postby Mikey » Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:10 am

I think you guys are missing Seafort's point. When he speaks of the support Earth received from Andoria, Tellar, Vulcan, et. al.; it doesn't have to mean actual allied contribution to the war effort, or even materiel and other material. The fact of those other peoples having just previously given Earth technological assistance and intel is enough to discount the idea of Earth having achieved a certain level "on its own."

Further, we should also remember that the Romulan Star Empire and the Klingon Empire are, well... empires. Totalitarian governments tend to support the status quo and a certain intentional lack of progression.
"We've been over this. We don't shoot first and ask questions later."
"Of course! We never ask questions."
User avatar
Mikey
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
 
Posts: 33090
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:04 am
Location: down the shore, New Jersey, USA

Re: Age of Klingon Empire?

Postby Mikey » Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:11 am

I think you guys are missing Seafort's point. When he speaks of the support Earth received from Andoria, Tellar, Vulcan, et. al.; it doesn't have to mean actual allied contribution to the war effort, or even materiel and other material. The fact of those other peoples having just previously given Earth technological assistance and intel is enough to discount the idea of Earth having achieved a certain level "on its own."

Further, we should also remember that the Romulan Star Empire and the Klingon Empire are, well... empires. Totalitarian governments tend to support the status quo and a certain intentional lack of progression.
"We've been over this. We don't shoot first and ask questions later."
"Of course! We never ask questions."
User avatar
Mikey
Fleet Admiral
Fleet Admiral
 
Posts: 33090
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:04 am
Location: down the shore, New Jersey, USA

Re: Age of Klingon Empire?

Postby stitch626 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:49 am

Wow... two sets of tripple posts in a row... by different people. I think thats a record.
No trees were killed in transmission of this message. However, some electrons were mildly inconvenienced.
User avatar
stitch626
2 Star Admiral
2 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 9521
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:57 pm
Location: Romulus

Re: Age of Klingon Empire?

Postby Captain Seafort » Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:56 pm

Mikey wrote:Totalitarian governments tend to support the status quo and a certain intentional lack of progression.


Not all empires are totalitarian. And some are responsible for triggering the greatest leaps in technological progress in history.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.

Across the Universe - Chapter 2 now up
User avatar
Captain Seafort
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 14981
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: Age of Klingon Empire?

Postby Praeothmin » Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:49 pm

Earth had to develop Warp Drive on its own before the Vulcans would at least contact it, and the Warp 5 engine was developed by Archer's father...
Archer's many gripes about the Vulcans was how they kept their help to a minimum, holding back scientific knowledge so that the humans would not stray too far from home, leaving Humans to progress on their own...
So Earth did indeed "achieve a certain level of technology" on their own, in a very short time, before the Federation was created...
The truth always depends on which side of the fence you're standing... ;)
User avatar
Praeothmin
Lieutenant
Lieutenant
 
Posts: 609
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:04 pm
Location: Quebec City

PreviousNext

Return to TNG

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest