Star trek invented the iPad?

The Original Series

Re: Star trek invented the iPad?

Postby SolkaTruesilver » Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:15 pm

Reliant121 wrote:If god exists, I hope he believes in hopeless causes :P


Hey, if I succeed, I will have banked so much positive Karma, I'll be able to have a threesome with Jolene Blalock and Jeri Ryan.

Good karma have perks, you know :happydevil:
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Re: Star trek invented the iPad?

Postby Tyyr » Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:30 pm

SolkaTruesilver wrote:I already said the same thing to Deepcrush: Just because your environment makes it casual to throw insults and offensive comments around doesn't make it right. And just because the rules says nothing is against doesn't make it right too.

You're not coming into formal meeting or a business environment or anything of the sort. This is an internet forum. There is an established culture here, one in which my comments to you are rather mild, by our standards. And our standards are the ones that matter. If you don't like it you are welcome to leave. However understand that you're one new guy coming into an established group of twenty or thirty who have already decided what the standards of conduct are going to be. Don't expect us to change to accommodate you.

Being insulting makes any kind of argument personnal and detrimental to the conservation, since you are attacking the arguer, not the argument. Why? Because the insutled parties start sticking to their side of the issue at all cost, regardless of wether they are right or not, just for the principle of things. Therefore, removing any point of the argument, where you are trying to convince the other party.

If you're twelve yes. If you're an adult you should be able to either ignore the insults, or at the least keep the rational portion of your brain engaged at all times. If you can't that's your problem.

I already lost my temper once on this website because of such attitude, and I don't want to be drawn again into another useless fece-throwing.

Then be an adult and don't. You have control of your actions. You weren't drawn, you decided to proceed down that path of your own accord. If you don't want to go down it than be an adult and DON'T.

Be abusive as much as you want,

I think I will.

and you aren't proven right just because I refuse to participate in further insults.

Why in the hell would I think that?

- Emergy situation. What does it have to do with the argument? Picard knew Data has gone berserk, and he had time to plan his strategy, very much in-character for Picard.

Because emergency situations typically require quick direct action. If someone told you that your child had been hospitalized because of an accident do you get in the car and then take the time to get your radio tuned right and your AC set just how you want it or do you haul ass and screw the little things? Picard taking the time to set up his music isn't the actions of a man responding to an emergency.

- It is not indicated that Picard improvised it either. Whatever "visuals" that you may perceived as "Picard thought it on the fly" is quite subjective, and can be interpreted in many ways. Maybe he had quite a good number of strategy in mind, and he set his mind on one at that very moment.

Well if we're going to just throw out the movie as evidence of anything I don't know how we're going to have a debate. You can stick to your fantasy land interpretation of what you want it to be and I guess I'll stick to mine. Personally I'd prefer to actually... you know, use the film as a basis of debate for what happens during the film.

In the movie Data is dodging all over the place making it impossible for them to dock. Picard pulls back, pauses, and thinks about it for a minute. He then gets an ah ha moment and leans over to the computer. He doesn't just hit, "Play HMS Pinafore," he takes a minute to look at a list, make a selection and go. None of this gives the impression of a pre-planned strategem. In fact having it be a pre-planned strategem only makes this series of events more ridiculous. If you've got a plan that could disable Data long enough to dock peacefully why risk both shuttles and three lives first before using it? Also, if we go with your belief that they're all computer programmers why didn't Picard just have one button at the console in front of him? Why not set up one big, "HMS Pinafore/Disable Data" button instead of leaning over and dicking around with the system?

Blablabla

Impressive, you whine about wanting a coherent debate and then reduce a great deal of evidence and logic against your standpoint and reduce it to that. Careful, your hypocrisy is showing.

Even on a modern computer, a work computer, or anything, you can easily set any interface to "with this click, play this music and make one of my screen go into Karaoke mode". It doesn't take that much time on our own computers, I don't see why the shuttle Picard decided to pick for his mission couldn't have been programmed like that.

Reference my above arguement. If he did do that why didn't he have it set up that way. As a single button to push that would execute his sing-a-long and why didn't he do it first if he's going through this much pre-planning for his karaoke?

The LCARS interface itself might be dubious,

Might?

but I have no problem thinking that Starfleet officers are all trainer programmers who can redesign their interface based on their most common needs. Since they all know their own console set out personnally, for having programmed them, they all know intuitively how to use it. Hell, there is probably also "standardized" programming courses at the Academy to make sure that your officers keep the same basic design templates.

Facts not even a little bit in evidence. While I won't argue that they likely rearrange their work spaces to their suiting that doesn't explain the disaster that is every other console on the ship. Unless you're suggesting that these guys spend all this time reconfiguring every potential display in the system exactly how they want it and then memorize every single possible keystroke. Getting off track here.

When an officer takes a console, you usually see him tap a few things immediately on the screen. Maybe they are calling up the interface they already pre-programmed? Would make sense, if you accept my interpretation.

I accept that they likely can reconfigure their consoles. However your extreme claims that Picard naturally has the shuttle use a central display screen for his music. Which really makes little sense given that that, "Computer, play HMS Pinafore," is a perfectly valid way of calling up music in Trek and we've seen people use that method plenty of times. There's no good reason to burn a screen that could be displaying critical flight data.

Well, your "obvious reasons" why I am stupid aren't so obvious at all, since I can actually argue about it, and make good points regarding them.

No, first of all you're assuming quite a lot, and second of all you're ignoring what actually happens in the movie and loosely intepreting it to fit what you want it to mean rather than taking what is shown at face value.

Just because you think you are right about an opinion you made beforehand doesn't make people stupid. Stay civil, keep your cool, and just tell me what you think I got wrong.

Look, you said something incredibly stupid and you're still pushing it. I don't feel the need to nursemaid every dumb idea people put forth in contradiction to all logic and sense and I don't feel the need to coddle the idiots that put forth the stupid ideas either.

What you're suggesting boils down to Picard thinking long and hard about what he's going to do, then programming the shuttle (in a really pitiful way given that he needed two clicks and some scrolling to find his master plan) to carry this plan out. Then he ignores the plan and just tires to dock with someone who's already opened fire on them. Pauses, has to think back, "Oh yeah, I had this great idea about how to disable Data so I wouldn't have to do all that stupid shit I just did, lemme try that," and then executes his carefully thought out plan, after ignoring it and apparently forgetting it.

This is of course in counterpoint to my off the cuff suggestion of how a completely fucked up user interface might actually be able to work and explain how someone could have an idea in the middle of a fight and manage to pull up an obscure piece of music several centuries old at that moment with a pissant two button pushes.

Your suggestion is that Picard has the short term memory of Tommy Chong, mine is that Picard is capable of some serious lateral thinking. But no, keep telling me how your idea is the logical one.
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Re: Star trek invented the iPad?

Postby Tyyr » Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:13 pm

Ya know what, I'll explain as nicely as I can why you're wrong.

1) The initial comment was made in response to how LCARs interfaces are clusterfucks. It was a joking response that took one of the most nonsensical information recalls in Trek history. It was half serious in that it took one of Trek's existent technologies, the ability of the ship's computer to record everyone's brain activity all the time, and used that to try and explain how the mess could maybe work in that situation.

2) You decided to use this as the basis for an explanation of LCARs functionality overall. Guess what, I don't disagree. User configurable interface combined with context sensitive buttons and a ridiculous amount of memorization are about the only way you can make LCARs actually work without mind reading. Here's where you went wrong though. This specific example is not a good one for this debate though as there is no way to make it work without Picard either doing something stupid or the computer reading his mind.

3) Why is it stupid? As it's been explained, less nicely, there's absolutely no reason for Picard to have a display dedicated to his music. Why? Because it's fucking Star Trek, he could just tell the computer "Play HMS Pinafore." You don't need to waste a display screen on your music collection when you can just tell the computer to play it. So there's no reason in day to day activities to bother with doing that, especially when the display he'd have to use for his music is one of the more important ones as it can be viewed by both pilots and it's a shuttle, it's not overflowing with displays to begin with. Also, why would Picard have a prebuilt user interface for a shuttle? The man is a starship captain. When he wants to go somewhere he tells people to take him there. He's been on a shuttle about half a dozen times in the entire fucking series. Why would he have a user defined control scheme for a piece of equipment he rarely ever uses? Again, this is a horrible example to use to make this argument. If I was trying to explain how LCARs worked and I was pushing this idea if someone brought up this particular scene I'd shrug and say, "Fuck if I know." It's not a scene to use to make this argument as it requires everyone to swallow a bottle of stupid pills.

4) Picard having a plan doesn't work. I'm sorry, it doesn't. If you watch this scene sans agenda the conclusion 99 out of a hundred people will reach is that Picard came up with this idea on the fly. The one person who didn't think that would be you. Sometimes you're not a beautiful and unique snowflake, sometimes you're just coming up with a really stupid idea. Even if he does have the plan what is he doing trying to just dock with Data's shuttle? He's already signaled his hostile intentions pretty well when he SHOT at the Enterprise. If Picard did have a plan then why didn't he use it to begin with? If he programmed the interface why did he need to hit a button, read a list, and hit another to enact it? If it was his plan all along instead of a hair brained off the cuff idea it was stupid to begin with. It has all the hallmarks from start to finish of being an off the cuff, pull anything out of your ass idea, in the hope something works. Visually and logically that's what it is.

If you want to start a debate about how LCARs could function then guess what, I'll support the idea of user configurable interfaces. If you try to use this scene as proof of that I will return to considering you a fucking idiot.

In this scene, in this context, your explanation is fucking ridiculous. In fact every explanation is pretty fucking ridiculous to the point where you either have to consider what was displayed to be telepathy or Picard having a button fetish and demanding he always have his music collection at his finger tips. I'll take the off the wall explanation that doesn't include Picard being a dumbass.
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Re: Star trek invented the iPad?

Postby stitch626 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:38 pm

Is it possible that the shuttle used voice recognition to bring up some sort of quick menu.


Also, given Starfleets penchant for poor security, perhaps the shuttle was linked to the Enterprises computer, in which case two clicks would be enough.
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Re: Star trek invented the iPad?

Postby SolkaTruesilver » Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:40 pm

stitch626 wrote:Is it possible that the shuttle used voice recognition to bring up some sort of quick menu.


Also, given Starfleets penchant for poor security, perhaps the shuttle was linked to the Enterprises computer, in which case two clicks would be enough.


But he is right about one thing; I remember Picard actually shuffling through a selection. Which kinda shoot down the idea of a pre-prepared plan.

Darn it. I still won't accept the "mind-reading computer", however.
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Re: Star trek invented the iPad?

Postby Reliant121 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:42 pm

Maybe you can set up shortcuts on a screen to lead to a playlist, sorta like you can save bookmarks on a browser?
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Re: Star trek invented the iPad?

Postby SolkaTruesilver » Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:51 pm

Reliant121 wrote:Maybe you can set up shortcuts on a screen to lead to a playlist, sorta like you can save bookmarks on a browser?


Could work. So, one button to bring up the playlist, the other one to select the tune?
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Re: Star trek invented the iPad?

Postby Tyyr » Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:51 pm

And again, I have to ask why would you? "Computer, play HMS Pinafore."

Why bother putting things on the display for something so esoteric?
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Re: Star trek invented the iPad?

Postby Tyyr » Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:52 pm

stitch626 wrote:Is it possible that the shuttle used voice recognition to bring up some sort of quick menu.

He never said a word.
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Re: Star trek invented the iPad?

Postby Nickswitz » Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:54 pm

Tyyr wrote:And again, I have to ask why would you? "Computer, play HMS Pinafore."

Why bother putting things on the display for something so esoteric?


Maybe he was unsure of what he wanted to play, and therefore he wanted to go through it and see what might be to Data's liking.
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Re: Star trek invented the iPad?

Postby stitch626 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:56 pm

Tyyr wrote:
stitch626 wrote:Is it possible that the shuttle used voice recognition to bring up some sort of quick menu.

He never said a word.

You bet he did. He was talking to Worf for a while there. Perhaps the computer heard him say Gilbert and Sullivan and brought up a small quick menu with their... stuff.
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Re: Star trek invented the iPad?

Postby SolkaTruesilver » Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:00 pm

stitch626 wrote:
Tyyr wrote:
stitch626 wrote:Is it possible that the shuttle used voice recognition to bring up some sort of quick menu.

He never said a word.

You bet he did. He was talking to Worf for a while there. Perhaps the computer heard him say Gilbert and Sullivan and brought up a small quick menu with their... stuff.


That might make sense, but I could see a thousand reason why such interface that reacts to what you are saying would be SOOOO annoying.
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Re: Star trek invented the iPad?

Postby Tyyr » Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:00 pm

Nickswitz wrote:Maybe he was unsure of what he wanted to play, and therefore he wanted to go through it and see what might be to Data's liking.

The song was one that Data was singing earlier. The overall impression of the scene was that Picard picked that song out specifically for that reason.

Even if you go with that explanation it doesn't explain how he got to the complete works of Gilbert and Sullivan with two button pushes.
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Re: Star trek invented the iPad?

Postby Tyyr » Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:01 pm

SolkaTruesilver wrote:You bet he did. He was talking to Worf for a while there. Perhaps the computer heard him say Gilbert and Sullivan and brought up a small quick menu with their... stuff.


That might make sense, but I could see a thousand reason why such interface that reacts to what you are saying would be SOOOO annoying.

1) I stand corrected. 2) Exactly what he said. Also, almost every other time we've seen someone give voice commands to the computer it's been presaged by "Computer..." which frankly sounds a bit weird but does make it clear when you're speaking with the computer.
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Re: Star trek invented the iPad?

Postby Reliant121 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:03 pm

"You know, chef decided to cook some toast this morning..."

-bzzz-

"No, i didn't mean replicate some you moron."

Or perhaps

"What would happen if we fired a torpedo?"

"Fire torpedo"

"SHIT!".
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