What is the 23rd Century Starfleet?

The Original Series

Re: What is the 23rd Century Starfleet?

Postby DSG2k » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:36 pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:The idea that the STTM ships use the same saucer as the Connie is a ridiculous idea anyways. They might use the same shell but the inner arrangement and the equipment would have to be completely different to the onscreen Connie.


All we're talking about is a shell! And a small part of one piece of one at that!
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Re: What is the 23rd Century Starfleet?

Postby stitch626 » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:37 pm

DSG2k wrote:
stitch626 wrote:
And the DS9 ones, too. Go ahead, you can admit it.

Ah, no. See, I'm not disputing the nacelles, only the saucer. Nacelles are commonly reused design wise. Its a theme for a time period.

And none of those ships use a Connie saucer (at least none of the canon ones).


http://drexfiles.wordpress.com/2009/01/ ... ackground/

That one was seen on screen per Drexler, along with the others. That's why they are in the DS9TM, and why there are production models of them. If he just wanted to draw them for the TM why would they make a model?

Good lord man, you could at least try to make sense.

No. That ship never was seen in Trek. It was a model, but never made it in an episode. Even the site you linked to before said that no image exists.
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Re: What is the 23rd Century Starfleet?

Postby kostmayer » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:41 pm

Hang on a drop.

Relics was after Wolf 359 wasn't it? Whose to say all the others got destroyed/decommisioned between Wolf 359 and Relics?

Sorry if thats already been suggested, I can't be arsed ploughing through this thread to check.
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Re: What is the 23rd Century Starfleet?

Postby Aaron » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:42 pm

Does anyone actually have a screenshot of this thing anyways? The Wolf 359 Connie?



All we're talking about is a shell! And a small part of one piece of one at that!


Yeah, I don't have a problem with reusing shells, though that seems to be limited to bits and bobs from certain craft rather then a whole ship. There's RL precedent in the Spruance/Tico as well and a few others that my brain has lost the names too.


Hang on a drop.

Relics was after Wolf 359 wasn't it? Whose to say all the others got destroyed/decommisioned between Wolf 359 and Relics?

Sorry if thats already been suggested, I can't be arsed ploughing through this thread to check.


Yeah it was.
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Re: What is the 23rd Century Starfleet?

Postby stitch626 » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:54 pm

kostmayer wrote:Hang on a drop.

Relics was after Wolf 359 wasn't it? Whose to say all the others got destroyed/decommisioned between Wolf 359 and Relics?

Oh...
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Re: What is the 23rd Century Starfleet?

Postby DSG2k » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:55 pm

Okay, time vampires. Your time's up.

Your acceptance of the facts is not required. The simple fact is, the assumption of a full Constitution (or even a specially-built one put together for the battle) at Wolf 359 is an absurdity, based on speculation and, stupidly, lies and flames from your side. There is no proof that the class was operational during TNG, or even the 24th Century at all. At this point you are merely trolling, disagreeing for the sake of it, and your arguments aren't even making sense anymore (any more than they ever did, in any case). There is no new information and you guys are just contradicting yourselves and outright lying at this point, so I see no purpose in continuing.

The only way to avoid a canon contradiction is to accept that the hull fragment is not representative of an entire Constitution Class vessel. Those who insist on a contradiction do so at the expense of logic and canon. And while I've had a bit of nostalgic fun standing against the swarming mass, the simple fact is that your attempt to claim that I'm wrong is utterly disproven, as well as the assorted personal attacks and even false claims by mods that came along with it all.

Good day.
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Re: What is the 23rd Century Starfleet?

Postby Aaron » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:56 pm

Relics is S6, TBOBW is of course S3-S4.
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Re: What is the 23rd Century Starfleet?

Postby Aaron » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:58 pm

DSG2k wrote:Okay, time vampires. Your time's up.

Your acceptance of the facts is not required. The simple fact is, the assumption of a full Constitution (or even a specially-built one put together for the battle) at Wolf 359 is an absurdity, based on speculation and, stupidly, lies and flames from your side. There is no proof that the class was operational during TNG, or even the 24th Century at all. At this point you are merely trolling, disagreeing for the sake of it, and your arguments aren't even making sense anymore (any more than they ever did, in any case). There is no new information and you guys are just contradicting yourselves and outright lying at this point, so I see no purpose in continuing.

The only way to avoid a canon contradiction is to accept that the hull fragment is not representative of an entire Constitution Class vessel. Those who insist on a contradiction do so at the expense of logic and canon. And while I've had a bit of nostalgic fun standing against the swarming mass, the simple fact is that your attempt to claim that I'm wrong is utterly disproven, as well as the assorted personal attacks and even false claims by mods that came along with it all.

Good day.


Dude, if you didn't pull this crap every time you get into a "debate" you might find that people are more willing to discuss things without "getting nasty", not that there is a specific rule against it anyways.
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Re: What is the 23rd Century Starfleet?

Postby kostmayer » Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:04 pm

Really don't want to get drawn into this but..

Ship gets destroyed at Wolf 359 that may be a Constitution class.
Picard claims later that there are no Constitution class ships in service.

Where is the contradiction?

Absurd as it may be, theres visual evidence that a Constitution class ship was in service at Wolf 359, and no visual evidence or dialogue to suggest there were no Constition class ships in service at the time of Wolf 359.

Hell, Admirals get to pick their own ship, and McCoy was still kicking about during Farpoint - whose to say there isn't an 120 year old Admiral knocking around who won't retire, and won't let them decomission his ship 70 years after the class got discontinued.
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Re: What is the 23rd Century Starfleet?

Postby DSG2k » Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:32 pm

I had already pondered the timeline issue brought up on this page (you guys act as if I don't know what I'm doing), but again (a) Picard would've mentioned it in context, (b) they retired the E-A, and so on as per my prior posts . . . put simply, again, there's no evidence of 24th Century service (or activity or hulls laying about or anything) of the Constitution Class starship, and all indications are for a pre-2300 retirement. Save for the one in the museum, the rest must've been scrapped or destroyed. And yes, that clearly strikes a nerve around here, but then folks were trying to get on mine from the get-go so I hardly care.

And Kendall, I didn't pull any crap. People who were illogical and wrong tried to claim I was actually the one who was wrong, even after I gave the "agree to disagree" olive branch. I resisted their bogus claims of my so-called errors, and they flamed and attacked. I resisted. They persisted. I showed I wouldn't back down. They crumbled into disarray. End of story.

I'll be damned if resisting lies and attacks based on illogic and error is something I would ever apologize for or allow someone to claim I was in the wrong for having done, and anyone who thinks otherwise can kiss my ass.

The only thing I did wrong was let the time vampires take up a bit too much time out of my day. On that point, I'll freely admit error. But beyond that? Hell no.

Good day.
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Re: What is the 23rd Century Starfleet?

Postby Aaron » Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:37 pm

DSG2k wrote:I had already pondered the timeline issue brought up on this page (you guys act as if I don't know what I'm doing), but again (a) Picard would've mentioned it in context, (b) they retired the E-A, and so on as per my prior posts . . . put simply, again, there's no evidence of 24th Century service (or activity or hulls laying about or anything) of the Constitution Class starship, and all indications are for a pre-2300 retirement. Save for the one in the museum, the rest must've been scrapped or destroyed. And yes, that clearly strikes a nerve around here, but then folks were trying to get on mine from the get-go so I hardly care.


What do you expect? Sci-fi debates are primarily about how folks view their chosen franchise and how to make it better (ie: add more of what I like).

And Kendall, I didn't pull any crap. People who were illogical and wrong tried to claim I was actually the one who was wrong, even after I gave the "agree to disagree" olive branch. I resisted their bogus claims of my so-called errors, and they flamed and attacked. I resisted. They persisted. I showed I wouldn't back down. They crumbled into disarray. End of story.

I'll be damned if resisting lies and attacks based on illogic and error is something I would ever apologize for or allow someone to claim I was in the wrong for having done, and anyone who thinks otherwise can kiss my ass.

The only thing I did wrong was let the time vampires take up a bit too much time out of my day. On that point, I'll freely admit error. But beyond that? Hell no.

Good day.


No, you stamped your feet, declared victory and went home. It comes across as extremely childish. Now in this case you where at least partially in the right but it doesn't make it any less silly.

Actually, re-reading the last few pages, it seems more like people where talking past each other then too each other.
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Re: What is the 23rd Century Starfleet?

Postby Mark » Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:45 pm

Ok....this is the single silliest arguement that I've seen on this friggin' forum since the Blackstar days. The arguement is that since Picard said the last Connie was decommissioned in 2360, even though we SEE a Connie hull, and we know from backstage sources that it was a Connie hull, that it must be something SIMILAR to, but not a Connie?

Have I gotten the jist of this during the past eight page skim?
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Re: What is the 23rd Century Starfleet?

Postby Captain Seafort » Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:46 pm

Yep.
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Re: What is the 23rd Century Starfleet?

Postby kostmayer » Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:48 pm

Am bowing out because like most debates like this :-

a) No one will win
b) I actually couldn't give a crap.

Can't we just trust to democracy and take a vote?
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Re: What is the 23rd Century Starfleet?

Postby Aaron » Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:55 pm

Hmm...can we filibuster?
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