What is the 23rd Century Starfleet?

[Mikey]

Though sorely tempted, I will not excercise moderatorial powers in a debate in which I am a participant. However, this is getting ridiculous, DSG2k, completely aside from your position and even from your misdirection, strawman arguments, and circular logic. Baiting Stitch, who may disagree with you but has been the epitome of mild-mannered is unconscionable; as is taking a person to task for a different person's comments, even if they agree with each other about the Connie issue. I can handle it when you intentionally obfuscate my comments, and tell you what's what; but this sort of thing is beyond the pale. Please knock it off.

[Mark]

Is there some rule stating that said decommissioned Connie couldn't be re-commissioned for the Borg crisis? Hell, they sent in an Oberth. A TMP era Connie has more firepower than a TNG Oberth, so why not?

After all, the USN decommissions ships and later recommissions them. Look at the USS "Mighty Mo". Decommissioned, then later recommissioned for Desert Storm. A good percentage of decommissoned ships are not scrapped...but mothballed for later and future needs.

Unless there is some visual/technical/cannon proof that this ship was in fact NOT a Connie. If it's not a Connie, then it must be some other kind of cannon ship.

If it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, and walks like a duck................

[Mark]

I don't see how this is even a debate.

You'd have better luck insisting that Miranda isn't really the ships class name, and that it's really the "Relient" Class.

[Aaron]

No there isn't. This argument, like many others involving ST is basically folks interpretation of canon and how it fits in with their conceptions of ST.

In fact having ships mothballed makes sense, and does explain the sudden DS9 numbers balloon.

Crap, I'm interpreting canon.

[stitch626]

I think our biggest problem here is that we haven't had anything of this... temperament since Blackstar, so we were rusty and jumped in without thinking. At least, I know I did.

While I still stand by my original points, I realize I went about it a bit poorly.

[Aaron]

I wouldn't blame yourself stitch. DGS2K always manages to post in a manner that comes across as confrontational yet skirts the bounds of politeness. So maybe folks jumped the gun but theres enough blame to go around.

[DSG2k]

Though sorely tempted, I will not excercise moderatorial powers in a debate in which I am a participant. However, this is getting ridiculous, DSG2k, completely aside from your position and even from your misdirection, strawman arguments, and circular logic. Baiting Stitch, who may disagree with you but has been the epitome of mild-mannered is unconscionable; as is taking a person to task for a different person's comments, even if they agree with each other about the Connie issue. I can handle it when you intentionally obfuscate my comments, and tell you what's what; but this sort of thing is beyond the pale. Please knock it off.

Y'know, the sad part is, the only reason the whole dog-piling thing got started is because people were being insulting and dishonest . . . just like the message above. And so I signal that I'm stopping participation, so Mikey then decides to be . . . what? . . . insulting and dishonest.

Knock off your bad behavior and I won't post so much . . . since, of course, the only thing I've done wrong is post a lot. I wouldn't have posted in this thread again at all, but for your bad behavior here.

I would've preferred to have peacefully agreed to disagree right at the start, or even the second time I offered, rather than have people make such horsecrap claims about me while being disagreeable. You brought this off-topic nonsense upon yourselves by trying to make it a flame war. There was nothing in the horsecrap for me to agree to, so I can't imagine why you people act surprised that someone would stand and fight it out. I'm a very nice fellow, laid-back and easygoing, but I'm a cast iron sonofabitch if wronged.

Stop lying about me and I'll leave you to wallow in your fantasies about the ship, however disproven. Or hell, just stop talking about me. What's so difficult to understand about that?

[Mikey]

I'd be satisfied to even learn exactly what was insulting about what I wrote... unless a request to stop being antagonistic to a third party who hasn't merited it to be insulting, or the fact that I had the temerity to call fallacious logic for what it is.

[Mark]

I will re-iterate my request for proof. Prove your statement as factual, or conciede it as opinion. This thread will go absolutely noplace otherwise.

[Mikey]

Hmmm... "Relics" is on right now. Picard says, "There's one in the fleet museum" in explanation of how he's familiar with the class. Period. Absolutely no implication as to the status of the class at all.

[Mark]

Hell....as Wolf 359 is pretty close to Earth....maybe they pulled that one from the gallery and sent her forth to do battle.

[DSG2k]

Since Mark the Mod is making a demand on my time and requiring I post instead of reading the thread himself, I am required by the rules to post lest I find myself in a mod trap. As such, I will also respond to Mikey's claim.

The full transcript, lest it be further misrepresented, with thanks to Chakoteya.net:

SCOTT: Here's to you, lads.
PICARD: I hope I'm not interrupting. I was just coming off duty and I wanted to see how you were doing.
SCOTT: Not at all, not at all. Have a drink with me, Captain.
PICARD: Thank you.
SCOTT: I don't know what it is, exactly, but I would be real careful. It's real
(Picard knocks it back in one)
PICARD: Aldebaran whiskey. Who do you think gave it to Guinan?
SCOTT: Ah.
PICARD: Constitution class.
SCOTT: Aye. You're familiar with them?
PICARD: There's one in the Fleet museum, but then of course, this is your Enterprise.
SCOTT: I actually served on two. This was the first. She was also the first ship I ever served on as Chief Engineer. You know, I served aboard eleven ships. Freighters, cruisers, starships, but this is the only one I think of. The only one I miss.
PICARD: The first ship I ever served aboard as Captain was called the Stargazer. It was an overworked, underpowered vessel, always on the verge of flying apart at the seams. In every measurable sense, my Enterprise is far superior. But there are times when I would give almost anything to command the Stargazer again.
SCOTT: It's like the first time you fall in love. You don't ever love a woman quite like that again. Well, to the Enterprise and the Stargazer. Old girlfriends we'll never meet again.
PICARD: What do you think of the Enterprise D?
SCOTT: She's a beauty, with a good crew.
PICARD: But?
SCOTT: But. When I was here, I could tell you the speed that we were traveling by the feel of the deckplates. But on your ship, I feel like I'm just in the way.
PICARD: Seventy five years is a long time. If you would care to study some technical schematics or
SCOTT: I'm not eighteen. I can't start out like a raw cadet. No, there comes a time when a man finds that he can't fall in love again. He knows that it's time to stop. I don't belong on your ship. I belong on this one. This was my home. This is where I had a purpose. But it's not real. It's just a computer generated fantasy. And I'm just an old man who's trying to hide in it. Computer, shut this bloody thing off. It's time I acted my age.

[Ready room]

PICARD: Come.
(Geordi enters)
PICARD: Mister La Forge, I understand that before the Jenolen crashed, it had conducted an extensive survey of the Dyson sphere. Have we been able to access any of those records?
LAFORGE: We did try to download their memory core, but it was pretty heavily damaged in the crash. We actually haven't been able to get much out of it.
PICARD: Perhaps Captain Scott could be of use in accessing that material.
LAFORGE: It's possible. He does know those systems better than any of us. I'll have Lieutenant Bartel beam down with him.
PICARD: Mister La Forge, I would like you to accompany Captain Scott.
LAFORGE: Me, sir?
PICARD: Yes. Look, this is not an order, it's a request and it's one which you must feel perfectly free to decline. You see, one of the most important things in a person's life is to feel useful. Now, Mister Scott is a Starfleet officer and I would like him to feel useful again.
LAFORGE: I'll go with him, sir.
PICARD: Thank you.

That tells me that Picard was concerned for Scotty's out-of-touch feeling, but more importantly that there is but one Constitution and it's in the museum, and whatever ship it is, it is not the Enterprise-A. Otherwise, Picard would've mentioned that ships of the class were still operating (or even that the last one was just lost) just as Geordi later mentioned that things hadn't changed much in regards to engineering.

Imagine, if you will, that Kyle had been in the transporter for 75 years instead of Scotty. So Picard sits down with him on the bridge of the Reliant and they have the following conversation:

PICARD: Miranda class.
Kyle: Aye. You're familiar with them?
PICARD: There's one in the Fleet museum, but then of course, this is your Reliant.

Would you not be surprised to see one represented as an active ship in the next episode? I sure would. Especially if there had been only 12 of them in 2265, with the Admiralty being bent on retiring a perfectly good one based on her age in Star Trek III, and if Star Trek VI had ended with folks popping up to note that a virtually new Miranda Class ship (we'll call it the Lollipop) was being decommissioned anyway and whatnot, with a new Lollipop of a different class being built within a couple of years, and . . .

. . . you get the point. Or you don't. It matters little to me. But to have the above all occur and then have someone see a portion of a rollbar and declare the Mirandas weren't retired but still exist in battle-worthy condition (or can be specially built within days for the purpose!) makes no sense at all.

But now I'm retreading old ground for no good reason. The facts have been made plain, and the absurdity of the claim that a hull fragment must and can only represent an entire Constitution Class ship that was active or built for the battle or otherwise not decommissioned like the rest of the class, rather than being a portion of another ship using the same section of shell design just like half a dozen other ship classes of the era did . . . well, it's just such a useless argument. Certainly not worth trying to prop up with lies, illogic, and flames as you guys did, not to mention dogpiling and then complaining that I didn't carefully distinguish who was saying what, especially when some of you were contradicting yourselves between your own posts. Especially when I offered early on to agree to disagree, and again when it was clear you guys were wrong to say I was.

But in any case, I'm done with this thread. Any further questions are almost certainly answered in my prior posts within, and I direct you to them. I will waste no more time beating the dead horse.

[Lighthawk]

I usually stay out of this kind of shit, mostly due to not having the patience for it, but holy shit...

Since Mark the Mod is making a demand on my time and requiring I post instead of reading the thread himself, I am required by the rules to post lest I find myself in a mod trap.

This right here I nominate for the stupidest thing said through out the entire debate. Grow up man, and stop playing the victim. The only thing you've been trapped by is your own thick headedness.

Anyway, onward...

The full transcript, lest it be further misrepresented, with thanks to Chakoteya.net:

I hope nothing will be misrepresented by me cutting the transcript down a bit...I only really need two lines from it, and since the entirety is already here for checking against, I don't think we really need the whole thing again.

SCOTT: Aye. You're familiar with them?
PICARD: There's one in the Fleet museum, but then of course, this is your Enterprise.

That tells me that Picard was concerned for Scotty's out-of-touch feeling, but more importantly that there is but one Constitution and it's in the museum

Really? That line says that there are no other Constitution class ships? Cause I'm reading it, and all it says is that there is one in the Fleet museum. So anything that is in a museum MUST be the last of it's kind? This is the line that made you state the claim that started this "debate"? Just in case we've forgotten, here it is again...

Not necessarily. The secondary hull design (which is all that is seen) could've been used on another class. Picard explicitly puts the Constitution as being out of service in the 2360's, per "Relics".

Where? Where did he claim in that mere 14 word sentence that the Constitutions were out of service? Please point it out to me. How about highlighting the exact words in bold? Just in case I can't see them or something.

I'm sorry but bullshit. All that line says is that there is a connie in a museum, nothing more, nothing less.

, and whatever ship it is, it is not the Enterprise-A.

Again, where are you getting said information from out of that dialog? Cause I am not seeing it?

Otherwise, Picard would've mentioned that ships of the class were still operating

Really? You know the character so well inside and out to make that call? This isn't a debriefing or a report Picard is giving, he's having a causal conversation with another man, trying to boost his spirits a bit. Do you always give out any and all information on a related subject, all the time?

Here's another way of interpeting those lines. Scotty asks if Picard is familiar with the connie class. Picard says there's one in the fleet museum. Once could thus assume that Picard's longer, more detailed response would have been something along the lines of "I'm not that familiar with the class really, though I did get to see one at the fleet museum once."

Lets try a little substitution
Person A: You familiar with White Castle?
Person B: There's one on Mainstreet.

Clearly, this means that there is but one White Castle in the entire world, right? Right? Your logic would seem to suggest this, by the leap you took from Picard's statement.

(or even that the last one was just lost) just as Geordi later mentioned that things hadn't changed much in regards to engineering.

Imagine, if you will, that Kyle had been in the transporter for 75 years instead of Scotty. So Picard sits down with him on the bridge of the Reliant and they have the following conversation:

PICARD: Miranda class.
Kyle: Aye. You're familiar with them?
PICARD: There's one in the Fleet museum, but then of course, this is your Reliant.

Would you not be surprised to see one represented as an active ship in the next episode?

No, not really

I sure would. Especially if there had been only 12 of them in 2265, with the Admiralty being bent on retiring a perfectly good one based on her age in Star Trek III, and if Star Trek VI had ended with folks popping up to note that a virtually new Miranda Class ship (we'll call it the Lollipop) was being decommissioned anyway and whatnot, with a new Lollipop of a different class being built within a couple of years, and . . .

. . . you get the point. Or you don't. It matters little to me.

You know, you keep saying that, yet I really don't believe it. Otherwise you'd stop posting. Want to prove it matters little to you? Ignore this post. Go on, I dare you.

But to have the above all occur and then have someone see a portion of a rollbar and declare the Mirandas weren't retired but still exist in battle-worthy condition (or can be specially built within days for the purpose!) makes no sense at all.

But now I'm retreading old ground for no good reason. The facts have been made plain,

Indeed they have. The Fleet Museum has a Constitution Class ship as part of it's collection. I don't think anyone can argue that.

and the absurdity of the claim that a hull fragment must and can only represent an entire Constitution Class ship that was active or built for the battle or otherwise not decommissioned like the rest of the class, rather than being a portion of another ship using the same section of shell design just like half a dozen other ship classes of the era did . . . well, it's just such a useless argument. Certainly not worth trying to prop up with lies, illogic, and flames as you guys did, not to mention dogpiling

It might be scareligious to quote Star Wars in a Trek debate, but I find it appropriate here. I believe the following was said by Coron Horn

"If one guy calls you a hutt, you ignore him. If a second guy calls you a hutt, you start to wonder. If a third guy calls you a hutt, buy a drool bucket and start stockpiling spice."

And just to make it clear, I mean that in reference to all your claims of flaming, and all the claims against your...unique debate style. Nothing to do with whether you are actually right or wrong on the ship type.

and then complaining that I didn't carefully distinguish who was saying what, especially when some of you were contradicting yourselves between your own posts. Especially when I offered early on to agree to disagree, and again when it was clear you guys were wrong to say I was.

But in any case, I'm done with this thread.

Not holding my breath.

Any further questions are almost certainly answered in my prior posts within, and I direct you to them. I will waste no more time beating the dead horse.

I'll keep your club ready, just in case.

[Reliant121]

I'm bowing out now. I have had just about enough of people spouting "I'm so high and mighty, and of course I'm right." and then proceed to insult and ignore anyone else who actually makes a fucking argument. The writing is on the wall, you're just too blinded by your arrogant presumptiousness to read it. Get your eyes tested, or let your ego deflate a little.

Connie on screen. Connie get blowed up. {occured in S3/S4}

Picard says No more connie. {Occured in S6}

Is it that fucking hard to see? He says it AFTER the battle that there are no more.

Now. I've had plenty enough of this ridiculous argument.

[Sionnach Glic]

Alright, this "debate" is being put down. It's been going round in circles from the very start, and it's clear that no agreement is going to be made on what actually happened. GIven how tempers have started to flare up, this thread is coming to an end before things start to get completely out of hand. If you wish the thread to be re-opened, PM one of the mods with a good reason why. Though it'll have to be a damn good reason given the state of this thread.