In defense of the A_hole directive

[GrahamKennedy]

More like arresting anybody who smuggled a bunch of survivors on board a US ship. And if somebody did that after the US government had decided not to offer relief to a disaster zone, I imagine they would indeed be prosecuted.

Nikolai was specifically stated to have violated the PD by sheltering the Boraalans in the caves, before the E-D even arrived and despite not being Starfleet.

Then he must be some sort of government employee to be constrained by the PD. Angel One states plainly that civilians are not bound by it.

If you're talking about an interstellar rampagining army then the Feds would have good reason to stop it for self-preservation.

If you're talking about the equivalent of a Federation-like interstellar culture intervening in Darfur, then the matter becomes one that can't be solved without letting the entire planet know about the existence of alien life. In which case the orginal TOS-PD, which was a good idea, comes into effect.

Imagine that an army of a few thousand men at the tech level of the 18th century - muskets, cannon - was marching towards the Boraalans. They're a nasty bunch, basically out to wipe out anybody they meet. You could wipe them off the map in 10 seconds flat, and nobody would ever know what had happened to them. What then?

[sunnyside]

Then he must be some sort of government employee to be constrained by the PD. Angel One states plainly that civilians are not bound by it.

I don't remember the comment but that doesn't seem right. You'd think Mudd and others like him would have set themselves up as gods and such on other planets if that were the case.

[KuvahMagh]

He was a Cultural Observer if memory serves, I'm not sure if it was said in the episode whether or not he worked for the Federation. In this case thouigh as I have said before the PD issue really heats up when you consider what his child would look like, I'm sure it wouldn't be identical to the rest of them which could very weel lead to some kind of Alien Discovery among their population.

As to the PD in general, the TNG version seems based on the idea of Fate, if they are meant to live the asteroid won't hit them, if not then its not our job to do anything. Granted it has been applied poorly throughout the show, particularly in Voyager where it would be completely understandable if the crew slowly began to consider violating it to get resources throughout the course of the series, in a similar manner to how the mission in the Expanse changed Archer as he went on to the point where he stranded other vessels to complete the mission.

EDIT:

He attended Starfleet Academy but dropped out because the rules were to stringent and he worked at a Federation Observation Post, if this was official in any way I imagine he would have to at least of signed onto the PD, the name Federation in the name seems to indicate this is at least partially funded/supported by the Federation so it would seem likely the various rules would apply to him.

[GrahamKennedy]

Then he must be some sort of government employee to be constrained by the PD. Angel One states plainly that civilians are not bound by it.

I don't remember the comment but that doesn't seem right. You'd think Mudd and others like him would have set themselves up as gods and such on other planets if that were the case.

I tend to think the same thing, but Angel One makes it perfectly clear. Ramsey and his men are civilians, therefore they are not bound by the Prime Directive. I mean, Ramsey was plainly stating his intention to cause a revolution on that world, and a major plot point was that they could NOT just take him away from there by force. So either they changed the law after that, or Nikolai was a government employee. I don't really remember the ep that well, but I find it credible enough that the the Federation would employ scientists on that kind of work.

[GrahamKennedy]

He was a Cultural Observer if memory serves, I'm not sure if it was said in the episode whether or not he worked for the Federation. In this case thouigh as I have said before the PD issue really heats up when you consider what his child would look like, I'm sure it wouldn't be identical to the rest of them which could very weel lead to some kind of Alien Discovery among their population.

As to the PD in general, the TNG version seems based on the idea of Fate, if they are meant to live the asteroid won't hit them, if not then its not our job to do anything. Granted it has been applied poorly throughout the show, particularly in Voyager where it would be completely understandable if the crew slowly began to consider violating it to get resources throughout the course of the series, in a similar manner to how the mission in the Expanse changed Archer as he went on to the point where he stranded other vessels to complete the mission.

EDIT:

He attended Starfleet Academy but dropped out because the rules were to stringent and he worked at a Federation Observation Post, if this was official in any way I imagine he would have to at least of signed onto the PD, the name Federation in the name seems to indicate this is at least partially funded/supported by the Federation so it would seem likely the various rules would apply to him.

It's worth noting that in Symbiosis, Picard claims that every single time the Federation has interfered with less advanced cultures the results had been "disastrous". So it's not just that they won't interfere because of some ethical quibble; it's because they have a long proven track record to say that positive interference is impossible.

Now yeah, in the case of the Boraalans it's a case of "disastrous life" versus "dead species". You have to imagine that no matter how traumatised and damaged they were by contact, it's better than just letting them all die.

[Mikey]

One would think. Especially if preventing extinction could be done without violating the TOS-style PD; i.e., not incurring any noticeable technological interference.

[GrahamKennedy]

One would think. Especially if preventing extinction could be done without violating the TOS-style PD; i.e., not incurring any noticeable technological interference.

The PD in TOS could be just as restrictive as in TNG. Kirk violated it in saving the Pelosian species during his career.

[Teaos]

But if you start picking and choosing when to follow it or not you cause all types of problems.

What of you could help with only a tiny bit of cultural contamination?

[Mikey]

There again, we're back at the real issue - application, rather than intention.

[Duskofdead]

It's worth noting that in Symbiosis, Picard claims that every single time the Federation has interfered with less advanced cultures the results had been "disastrous". So it's not just that they won't interfere because of some ethical quibble; it's because they have a long proven track record to say that positive interference is impossible.

Now yeah, in the case of the Boraalans it's a case of "disastrous life" versus "dead species". You have to imagine that no matter how traumatised and damaged they were by contact, it's better than just letting them all die.

Even with cultures which aren't pre-warp, we've seen plenty of evidence that it has been disastrous. Look at that one episode of Voyager... the title eludes me at the moment, my apologies. But Voyager encounters a race who has been recently devastated by the Borg and are refugees living aboard a fleet of ill-equipped vessels in space. If Voyager had perhaps stuck to the most stringent letter of the law in terms of the Prime Directive, they would have resumed course and continued on their journey. But they did the humane thing, they stopped to help them, empathizing with a race who had been rendered destitute by a shared enemy. And the aliens come back for more help... they tell the others of their race that they have found a source of supplies. More ships show up. Before you know it they are carrying out an attack on Voyager and trying to steal its warp core.

I think if they had been in the Alpha Quadrant, Federation authorities would have said that Janeway's act was well intentioned, but in this instance disregarding the Prime Directive had nearly cost them their ship.

[Captain Seafort]

Even with cultures which aren't pre-warp, we've seen plenty of evidence that it has been disastrous. Look at that one episode of Voyager... the title eludes me at the moment, my apologies. But Voyager encounters a race who has been recently devastated by the Borg and are refugees living aboard a fleet of ill-equipped vessels in space. If Voyager had perhaps stuck to the most stringent letter of the law in terms of the Prime Directive, they would have resumed course and continued on their journey. But they did the humane thing, they stopped to help them, empathizing with a race who had been rendered destitute by a shared enemy. And the aliens come back for more help... they tell the others of their race that they have found a source of supplies. More ships show up. Before you know it they are carrying out an attack on Voyager and trying to steal its warp core.

That was more of a combination of Seven's prescence and opportunistic thievery - Voyager had been forced to eject the core after a transwarp experiment went pear-shaped. The Cataati found it and decided to indulge in a spot of blackmail that was probably largely motivated by the opportunity of having a Borg to torture. They didn't decide simply from Voyager's assitance to attack and rob the ship.

[Mikey]

In any case, I odn't know if the letter of the PD would apply, as the Cataati were already interstellar-capable.

[mwhittington]

I can understand why some of you here hate the PD, but if there is no way to help a pre-warp species without contaminating their culture, perhaps it is best not to help them. After all, look what happened with Picard and the Mintakans in the episode "Who Watches the Watchers?". It was an accidental first contact, but it happened anyway. Picard keeps that tapestry draped over his chair in his captain's quarters to remind him of the importance of keeping to the PD. Your intentions may be good, after all, but you know the phrase "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". They even tried to fix it by sending Riker and Troi in disguise to convince them it was just their imagination, but they ended up making it worse. And then Picard beamed up Nuria to the ship to convince her it was just technology, not magic, and then beamed down with Nuria to convince Liko he wasn't a god, and got shot in the shoulder with an arrow for his trouble. True, it proved Picard wasn't a god, but I can think of better ways to convince someone I'm not a god. I know it was just a "duck blind" mission and the Mintakans were not in danger of extinction, but the principle still applies.
If, however, you can help a pre-warp civilization without alerting them to your presence, then of course render aid to them, but even that could be very tricky, again referring to the Mintakan incident. Dr. Crusher attempted to give Liko short term amnesia so he wouldn't remember what happened, but his proto-Vulcan physiology was able to resist, and thought Picard was a diety, and called him "the Picard".

[Duskofdead]

Even with cultures which aren't pre-warp, we've seen plenty of evidence that it has been disastrous. Look at that one episode of Voyager... the title eludes me at the moment, my apologies. But Voyager encounters a race who has been recently devastated by the Borg and are refugees living aboard a fleet of ill-equipped vessels in space. If Voyager had perhaps stuck to the most stringent letter of the law in terms of the Prime Directive, they would have resumed course and continued on their journey. But they did the humane thing, they stopped to help them, empathizing with a race who had been rendered destitute by a shared enemy. And the aliens come back for more help... they tell the others of their race that they have found a source of supplies. More ships show up. Before you know it they are carrying out an attack on Voyager and trying to steal its warp core.

That was more of a combination of Seven's prescence and opportunistic thievery - Voyager had been forced to eject the core after a transwarp experiment went pear-shaped. The Cataati found it and decided to indulge in a spot of blackmail that was probably largely motivated by the opportunity of having a Borg to torture. They didn't decide simply from Voyager's assitance to attack and rob the ship.

Fact remains, Seafort, if they had stringently followed the PD that situation would have never become a crisis.

[Duskofdead]

In any case, I odn't know if the letter of the PD would apply, as the Cataati were already interstellar-capable.

PD has been applied in instances of warp capable civilizations. The directive forbids interference in the normal development of any society. It has obvious and more stringent ramifications when it comes to first contact/less advanced cultures, but it applies to species of comparable technology as well. The Prime Directive forbid the Federation from becoming involved in the Klingon Civil War, for instance.