Fanwanking

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Re: Fanwanking

Postby McAvoy » Sat May 05, 2012 12:36 am

Deepcrush wrote:Again that depends on the Universe in question. If you're talking SW or 40k or Dune then its not a reach by any means. If you're talking ST or SG or BSG then you've got a problem.


It was within Stargate itself. I believe it was supposed to be the Tauri fleet by 2020.
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Re: Fanwanking

Postby Deepcrush » Sat May 05, 2012 12:50 am

Then yeah, its an absolute fanwank of incredible proportions.
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Re: Fanwanking

Postby DarkMoineau » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:50 pm

Sorry to up an old subject

Deepcrush wrote:Again that depends on the Universe in question. If you're talking SW or 40k or Dune then its not a reach by any means. If you're talking ST or SG or BSG then you've got a problem.


Even for Star Wars a 90km battleship would be fanwank ^^

the biggest Star Wars ship able to be built in reasonable timeframe are between 17 and 18Km long, and are dreadnought of Eclipse and Viscount Class, the second being commissioned 20 years after the battle of Endor when the longest, the Executor, is 19Km long.

If you allow yourself 20 years to build a ship, the biggest is the Death Star, mobile space station, which have a diameter of 160Km, only one million people in not so confortable conditions abord because of all the equipment and needed an important number of asteroïds in the stellar system of Despayr to be build with a big part of all the wookie puts in slavery along with private workers, prisonners of Despayr and droids. And the longest isn't to complete the hull as we saw in Star Wars 3 (still use Venator Star Destroyer to carry the Emperor & Vader, when Imperator/Imperial are 18 years old in Star Wars 4).
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Re: Fanwanking

Postby Captain Seafort » Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:10 pm

DarkMoineau wrote:If you allow yourself 20 years to build a ship, the biggest is the Death Star, mobile space station, which have a diameter of 160Km, only one million people in not so confortable conditions abord because of all the equipment and needed an important number of asteroïds in the stellar system of Despayr to be build with a big part of all the wookie puts in slavery along with private workers, prisonners of Despayr and droids. And the longest isn't to complete the hull as we saw in Star Wars 3 (still use Venator Star Destroyer to carry the Emperor & Vader, when Imperator/Imperial are 18 years old in Star Wars 4).


A few things:

1) Total build time for DS1 was about 2 years. Whether that was continuous or with extended tea breaks is unknown

2)The object seen at the end of RotS wasn't the first Deaths Star - the proportions are all wrong. It's either the Separatists' Great Weapon, or the Deaths Star prototype (or possibly both).

3) The record for a ship is the second Death Star: 900km across, and more than half finished within six months.
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Re: Fanwanking

Postby DarkMoineau » Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:41 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:A few things:

1) Total build time for DS1 was about 2 years. Whether that was continuous or with extended tea breaks is unknown


Books quoted by Wookipedia said the construction started in 21BBY. We both know she is "operational" few days/weeks before the battle of Yavin. And it is stated Revenge of the Sith show the First Death Star in 19BBY, the movie canon go over the Expended Universe and the Death Star prototype near Kessel. The Force Unleashed in 2BBY show a Death Star still in completion.
If the book about Death Star talk about problems and delays, I don't know a source who said she had a total build time of just 2 years.

Captain Seafort wrote:2)The object seen at the end of RotS wasn't the first Deaths Star - the proportions are all wrong. It's either the Separatists' Great Weapon, or the Deaths Star prototype (or possibly both).

3) The record for a ship is the second Death Star: 900km across, and more than half finished within six months.


Star Wars.com, the most official source you can find, put them on the same class, so they can't be so different in size, but the second is clearly from a subclass. Just like the USS Nimitz at his commission and the USS George Bush who are different in many way but still the same size and many common parts.
http://www.starwars.com/explore/encyclopedia/technology/deathstar/
The 900km size came only from a book, not from Star Wars.com who give the official size of movies ships and stations (like the 19Km of the Executor, long believed to be 8Km only by books author like Stackpole.) but don't state about the size of the space stations.

But Mimas, the "Death Star shaped moon" has a diameter of 396Km *<:*)X
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mimas_(moon)
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:shock:
(a little surprising no? ^^)

edit: looking at Death Star II wookipedia page, a book and only a book said it was approved to build a second Death Star few times before the destruction of the first one. But still more than 2 years of construction before a little more than half of completion and no serious problem, thanks to Prince Xizor transporters... and with a building process well know after a first Death Star (and maybe the Maw's prototype).
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Re: Fanwanking

Postby Captain Seafort » Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:30 pm

DarkMoineau wrote:Books quoted by Wookipedia said the construction started in 21BBY. We both know she is "operational" few days/weeks before the battle of Yavin.


As I said, we don't know how many tea breaks were involved. However, the SW Technical Journal states that construction took two years,

And it is stated Revenge of the Sith show the First Death Star in 19BBY,


It doesn't - the object seen in RotS has completely different proportions to DS1 (DS1 is more oblate and has a larger main weapon) as demonstrated here.

Star Wars.com, the most official source you can find, put them on the same class, so they can't be so different in size, but the second is clearly from a subclass.


Measurements from scenes in RotJ, and explicit statements in both Complete Locations and the Databank (since removed, but not contradicted) confirm the figure of ~900km.
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Re: Fanwanking

Postby DarkMoineau » Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:35 pm

In Revenge of the Sith commentary, George Lucas said that's the FIRST Death Star. George Lucas words are the truth in Star Wars Universe, no matter the other sources said, including the SFX.
This is quoted in Wookipedia articles about the Death Star and Revenge of the Sith.
He also said the Death Star could have been built faster without problems.

For Death Star II size, you are right... as long as Lucas doesn't said you are wrong of course ^^ ;)
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Re: Fanwanking

Postby Captain Seafort » Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:14 pm

DarkMoineau wrote:In Revenge of the Sith commentary, George Lucas said that's the FIRST Death Star. George Lucas words are the truth in Star Wars Universe, no matter the other sources said, including the SFX.


Wrong. The films are the highest SW canon, followed by novels, followed by games, comics, etc. Lucas is only relevant in terms of his influence on those products. If he makes a statement that is directly contradicted by something one of his companies produces, then he's wrong.
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Re: Fanwanking

Postby DarkMoineau » Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:17 pm

Who writes the scenary?

George Lucas.

Who produces the movie?

George Lucas.

His will matter more than the result of SFX.
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Re: Fanwanking

Postby Captain Seafort » Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:26 pm

DarkMoineau wrote:Who writes the scenary?

George Lucas.

Who produces the movie?

George Lucas.

His will matter more than the result of SFX.


As I said, he's relevant in terms of his influence on what his companies produce, but a word from him does not magically overwrite that product. If he intended the object at the end of RotS to be the first Death Star then he should have told the VFX guys. Since the two are visually distinct, they're two different objects.
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Re: Fanwanking

Postby DarkMoineau » Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:36 pm

Or that's SFX mistake like the Defiant size in First Contact because at ILM they never believe someone use math to know if it's the real Death Star because every one else know it is.
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Re: Fanwanking

Postby Captain Seafort » Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:49 pm

DarkMoineau wrote:Or that's SFX mistake like the Defiant size in First Contact


The reason we know the ship in FC is the Defiant is because it's explicitly identified as such. We have no such explicit IU identification of the object in RotS as the first Death Star.

The reason we know that the size of the Defiant in FC is a VFX bog-up is because we have extensive IU visuals of the Defiant, the bulk of which indicate that it's around 120m long. We likewise have extensive IU visuals of the first Death Star, from which we can determine the size of it's primary weapon, and that it's an oblate spheroid. We have only one image of the object from RotS, which demonstrates that it's far less oblate, and that it has a proportionately smaller primary weapon.

The conclusion, based on the evidence available under SoD, is that the object in RotS is not the first Death Star. The fact that we have an alternate candidate in the prototype Death Star (which has an open frame structure much like the RotS object) is simply a bonus.
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Re: Fanwanking

Postby DarkMoineau » Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:54 pm

I don't have the novel on hand but what about:

http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-Revenge-of-the-Sith.html

237 EXT. IMPERIAL STAR DESTROYER-SPACE

A Star Destroyer is surrounded by ATTACK CRUISERS. On the bridge of the Star Destroyer stands the EMPEROR and GOVERNOR
TARKIN.

DARTH VADER walks along the bridge to join the EMPEROR and GOVERNOR TARKIN. The camera PANS to reveal the huge frame
structure which is the beginning of the DEATH STAR.


Opinion?
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Re: Fanwanking

Postby Captain Seafort » Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:26 pm

DarkMoineau wrote:Opinion?


Haven't you been reading the thread? It's the wrong shape to be the first Death Star. The script is therefore either a) referring to the prototype, b) referring to the Death Star Project as a whole (with the visible object being the prototype, Great Weapon, or some other early construct) or c) wrong.
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Re: Fanwanking

Postby JHauck » Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:38 am

I prefer medium to small vessels as they're more realistic. I prefer Starfleet ships likely to get their asses handed to them, forcing the characters to fight tooth & nail for every inch of ground. Its a huge pain in the ass to write about "walking starbases". Such behemoths would be a sector-wide bull's-eye that scream "shoot here first".

I hate writers that need to create an entire universe aboard one uber-massive ship, rather than pace themselves. Pace themselves around, say, a Norway-Class or an NX-Class that's been temporarily resurrected for transport assignments.

Smaller refitted vessels used this way until the Federation can either buy/barter or build something new to deal with Sydney-Class / Defiant-Class losses (Klingon War, Borg Encounters, Dominion War, Cardassian Conflict, et al). Or until the Federation possibly complete repairs on already-in-progress Starfleet Museum / Frankenstein Fleet / Section 31 renovations.
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