Non Canon Ships and events

Discuss the site here - suggestions, comments, complaints, etc.

Non Canon Ships and events

Postby Graham Kennedy » Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:06 pm

Ian and I have been mulling over including entries on a few of the non canon ships of the modern post-Voyager era. Specifically, the Luna class of which Riker's USS Titan is a member, and the Vesta class of which the USS Aventine is a member.

Neither are canon but both are officially supported - both are ships that have starred in one or more official Trek novels, thus both are ships that we know or can extrapolate a reasonable amount about and get a reasonable entry on.

Including the events from those novels would also allow us to incorporate more character detail - the events of the novels, such as Picard marrying Beverly, Dax becoming a Captain, some of Riker's adventures on the Titan, etc. Naturally the canon colour coding system would let us show all this up as the non canon material that it is.

There is some precedent for this, as we include entries for Franz Joseph's non canon ships from the Starfleet tech manual already.

What say you? Good idea, or not? And any other candidates for ships to include?
Give a man a fire, and you keep him warm for a day. SET a man on fire, and you will keep him warm for the rest of his life...
User avatar
Graham Kennedy
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10850
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:28 pm
Location: Banbury, UK

Re: Non Canon Ships and events

Postby Jim » Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:57 pm

I like the idea. I like having the most possible information. The fact that there is already a color-coding system in place for canon level make it a sure thing to me.
Ugh... do not thump the Book of G'Quan...
User avatar
Jim
Captain
Captain
 
Posts: 1906
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:32 pm
Location: Pittsburgh

Re: Non Canon Ships and events

Postby Teaos » Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:59 pm

If it gets its own color in the canon index I think its a great idea.

But i wonder how you will pick which books to choose and which books to discount. Unless its and all or nothing thing, its going to be arbitary.
User avatar
Teaos
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 15251
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:00 am
Location: Behind you!

Re: Non Canon Ships and events

Postby Captain Seafort » Fri Dec 06, 2013 6:14 pm

I disagree. This isn't like Star Wars, where the books are officially canon, and there's at least an attempt to keep them consistent with each other. Far more happens in the books than can be fitted into the time period they cover, and if there aren't a shed full of examples of books directly contradicting each other, canon, or both, I'd be astonished.

I think the site is better for sticking to the (already vast) canon source material it already does rather than trying to cover hundreds or thousands of non canon books as well, which would, as Teaos points out, be impossible without cherry-picking sources and facts.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.
User avatar
Captain Seafort
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 15453
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: Non Canon Ships and events

Postby RK_Striker_JK_5 » Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:15 pm

I gotta agree with Seafort. You'd run into 'what do you count?' and there's a metric ton of stuff to include/exclude/sorta exclude in an inclusive way.
User avatar
RK_Striker_JK_5
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 11435
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:27 am
Location: New Hampshire

Re: Non Canon Ships and events

Postby Graham Kennedy » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:33 pm

We weren't thinking of adding a new colour; they would just go in green as do all official but not canon sources.

Yes, it would be cherry picking, Is that a bad thing, particularly? We already include the Franz Joseph TM, which isn't even officially backed now, and there are tiny bits from the novels here and there - some of the Bozeman page is from the novel Ship of the Line, for instance.

As for how you choose, my thought is to limit it to the more recent novels, and to only go with the ones that get a whole series. So to begin with, the Titan series. Then possibly the Destiny trilogy... maybe the DS9 relaunch books, in time. I was only thinking about the ships, but there's no reason we couldn't add the characters, species, timeline, etc.

What motivates me on this is that whilst there's a whole boatload of canon out there, the site already covers the large bulk of it. I know there's plenty of existing canon things not on the site, gaps to fill and such. But there's very little new content coming out. Starting to include stuff from the books would give us a new seam to mine.
Give a man a fire, and you keep him warm for a day. SET a man on fire, and you will keep him warm for the rest of his life...
User avatar
Graham Kennedy
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10850
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:28 pm
Location: Banbury, UK

Re: Non Canon Ships and events

Postby Teaos » Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:03 am

As I sad I like it, and don't mind cherry picking so long as its consistent. Every by author x. Or everything after y.

But I do think a different color would be nice.
User avatar
Teaos
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 15251
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:00 am
Location: Behind you!

Re: Non Canon Ships and events

Postby Graham Kennedy » Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:10 am

Hmm, I suppose there's no reason why we couldn't separate novels from things like tech manuals and encyclopedias.

Yellow for Canon
Green for official
White for speculative
Red for novels?

Cyan for novels?

Orange for novels?
Give a man a fire, and you keep him warm for a day. SET a man on fire, and you will keep him warm for the rest of his life...
User avatar
Graham Kennedy
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10850
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:28 pm
Location: Banbury, UK

Re: Non Canon Ships and events

Postby McAvoy » Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:52 am

Chances are there will never be a series or movie based on the Prime verse. Embrace the somewhat linear timeline of the current novels or don't.

Color coding for novels doesn't hurt either.
"Don't underestimate the power of technobabble: the Federation can win anything with the sheer force of bullshit"
User avatar
McAvoy
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral
 
Posts: 5061
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:39 am
Location: East Windsor, NJ

Re: Non Canon Ships and events

Postby Teaos » Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:48 am

As a color blind person Cyan is easy for me to differentiate.
User avatar
Teaos
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 15251
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:00 am
Location: Behind you!

Re: Non Canon Ships and events

Postby Reliant121 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:53 pm

Teaos wrote:As a color blind person Cyan is easy for me to differentiate.


Colour blind approval seconded.

I like the idea. There's no harm in being selective if you choose the officially recognised books that are reasonably large.
"He was the best of us. They struck without provocation, there was no reason. Animals! Brutal! They deserve no mercy! Strike them down, follow them back to their base and kill all of them, all of them! No mercy!" - Delenn
User avatar
Reliant121
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 12249
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:00 pm
Location: Hampshire, UK

Re: Non Canon Ships and events

Postby Captain Seafort » Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:04 pm

Reliant121 wrote:I like the idea. There's no harm in being selective if you choose the officially recognised books that are reasonably large.


That's the issue - the books where there's an argument over their status, or where their status has changed, are already incorporated into the site. Graham is talking about the novels, which have never been considered canon, and make scant effort to remain consistent between each other.
Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe: Albert Einstein.
User avatar
Captain Seafort
4 Star Admiral
4 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 15453
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:44 pm
Location: Blighty

Re: Non Canon Ships and events

Postby Reliant121 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:07 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:
Reliant121 wrote:I like the idea. There's no harm in being selective if you choose the officially recognised books that are reasonably large.


That's the issue - the books where there's an argument over their status, or where their status has changed, are already incorporated into the site. Graham is talking about the novels, which have never been considered canon, and make scant effort to remain consistent between each other.


Since DITL already incorporates books which are questionable to some, the admins have been arbitrated on whether to include the books or not. This would be merely an extension of already extant choices and content.
"He was the best of us. They struck without provocation, there was no reason. Animals! Brutal! They deserve no mercy! Strike them down, follow them back to their base and kill all of them, all of them! No mercy!" - Delenn
User avatar
Reliant121
3 Star Admiral
3 Star Admiral
 
Posts: 12249
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:00 pm
Location: Hampshire, UK

Re: Non Canon Ships and events

Postby Jim » Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:23 pm

Not red...
Ugh... do not thump the Book of G'Quan...
User avatar
Jim
Captain
Captain
 
Posts: 1906
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:32 pm
Location: Pittsburgh

Re: Non Canon Ships and events

Postby Sonic Glitch » Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:08 pm

Captain Seafort wrote:
Reliant121 wrote:I like the idea. There's no harm in being selective if you choose the officially recognised books that are reasonably large.


That's the issue - the books where there's an argument over their status, or where their status has changed, are already incorporated into the site. Graham is talking about the novels, which have never been considered canon, and make scant effort to remain consistent between each other.

Actually the recent novels (since CBS took over it seems) have been much better in that regard.

I think it could be done if the admins decided something like "OK we'll use the post-Nemesis "main series" novels" or something like that.

That being said, Graham, Ian, it's your site do what you like! :lol: I know I would like to see some of this stuff in a better-curated/organized manner than say Memory Beta.
"All this has happened before --"
"But it doesn't have to happen again. Not if we make up our minds to change. Take a different path. Right here, right now."
User avatar
Sonic Glitch
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral
 
Posts: 5998
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 1:11 am
Location: Any ol' place here on Earth or in space. You pick the century and I'll pick the spot

Next

Return to DITL

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest